College Conversations Podcast S2E5 Transcript: “Does anyone do Discipleship Like Jesus Anymore?” Part 2 (Transcript)
Episode Synopsis
Gregg Garner, Jeff Sherrod, and Laurie Kagay discuss the topic of discipleship on college campuses and the various programs available. They highlight the misconception that discipleship is solely about one's relationship with God and emphasize the importance of interactions with others. The challenges of discipleship in a college setting are discussed, as well as the potential for colleges to be effective discipleship institutions. The speakers also address the need for better cooperation between churches, post-secondary institutions, and parachurch organizations for effective discipleship. They conclude by emphasizing the importance of transparency in college involvement in discipleship.
College Conversations Season 2 Episode 5: Does Anyone Do Discipleship Like Jesus Anymore, Part 2 (Transcript)
Transcript - Tue, 13 Feb 2024
[00:00:13.59] - Gregg Garner
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to College Conversations. My name is Jeff Sherry. I'm here with president Greg Garner And Laurie Kege. And today, we're talking about, discipleship on college campuses.
[00:00:23.89] - Laurie Kagay
One of the top, like, results I found was two in five Christians are not engaged in discipleship at all. I kinda found a few, like, largely three groups If you're looking at, like, discipleship programs, like or three categories that things would fall into. One, churches would provide discipleship courses for often new adult believers. Another category would be, like, gap year programs. And then the third would be something that looked to me like a spiritual retreat center. There's there's other shouts out there not from Berna. You know, it's hard because people have different definitions of discipleship. Right.
[00:01:01.10] - Gregg Garner
We're gonna have to define it for ourselves here.
[00:01:02.50] - Laurie Kagay
And so one of them was, like, only five percent of Churches are disciple making churches was, you know, a stat they would have.
[00:01:10.20] - Gregg Garner
Five percent. Yeah. I think a common misconception with discipleship Is that you are discipling people purely in how they would interact with God rather than recognizing that so much of God's will is to help us interact with one another. Right.
[00:01:26.00] - Laurie Kagay
Right. This is also Barna. Fifty six percent of Christians tell Varna that their spiritual life is entirely private.
[00:01:33.20] - Gregg Garner
So texts like let everybody see or that light shining in you So that they can testify or witness your good work and glorify your father in heaven, that that just kinda is irrelevant.
[00:01:46.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. I think there's so much self affirmation.
[00:01:50.70] - Gregg Garner
Go ahead.
[00:01:52.09] - Jeff Sherrod
So much, like, cultural pressure for self affirmations, self love. You know, like, you are your own judge. I can see where that's going.
[00:02:02.20] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. I often wonder when people hear disciple. I've I've heard people, make it synonymous with followers, like, disciples or followers. But then With today's vernacular, like, you could follow Nashville severe weather on Twitter. Following is like a very low commit
[00:02:24.40] - Laurie Kagay
Oh, yeah.
[00:02:24.90] - Gregg Garner
Activity in today's world and of all the terms that Jesus could use to identify the group of people Who were with him were called disciples. Mhmm. And like you noted, they were charged to make disciples. It it's gonna be pretty important that we get a good definition of the term Right. Especially if we're going to refer to ourselves as disciples. Now we know that the Greek word is, easily translated as student. Yeah. So discipleship then Is an educational process.
[00:03:00.30] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:03:01.19] - Gregg Garner
For Jesus' interactions with his disciples were often coupled with with misunderstanding Mhmm. And conflict and the The need to, explain what it was he already taught. Yeah. Like, their their the educational process was profound. While I think we can all, see that Jesus revealed the father, taught us about God, Jesus also spent so much time helping the disciples to read the world. Mhmm. Learn how to see the world around them.
[00:03:32.69] - Laurie Kagay
And you said it earlier today too, like, he's so generous to us. We would think he just wants us to know about him. Like, that God just wants us to know About God.
[00:03:41.00] - Gregg Garner
Right.
[00:03:41.40] - Laurie Kagay
But he's like, he wants us to know about ourselves, about each other, about our world, about like, there's so much depth to it because he's so generous. He helps us so much in that way.
[00:03:52.50] - Gregg Garner
When Jesus called his disciples Mhmm. This cohort, I I think in our minds, we think he was calling them to church. The fact of the matter is that in the first century, you had a lot of these itinerant teachers who were very mobile and moving around and gathering students. And just like a college has an admissions process and an application process where you, Have to have necessary prerequisites Mhmm. To be able to participate and that there's, there are some people who get to be a part of the program. There's others who don't. So Jesus had the same with the disciples. John six, he says, have I not chosen the twelve of you? So that means that he had selections. Mhmm. There were people that, were available, but not everybody got chosen to be a part of this program because, Like any good scholastic institution, if you're going to have someone go through your program, you want them to have the kind of Ability that allows you to say, yes. We're proud of this person. Mhmm. They went through the program. They've learned what it is that they're supposed to learn, and we approve. And and we will stamp that approval onto this person. I think a important task for us today in this podcast is to establish That a discipleship institution that wants to do its best to do things the way Jesus did them Is going to have to identify those elements that made up Jesus's discipleship process and then implement.
[00:05:30.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. It sounds like colleges are they are set up on some level that they could be effective discipleship institutions. Like, there's a selection process. There's people that are there that are hopefully more mature in God's word. But because of maybe some of our cultural Protections or institutional protections were preventing discipleship from happening.
[00:05:52.10] - Laurie Kagay
Their families wonder if, like, kind of the anti intellectualism within the church plays into it too where you just have a separation of colleges from this more intimate journey. Because a lot of it's like, discipleship is a church mode.
[00:06:05.39] - Jeff Sherrod
Because discipleship almost sounds like less intellectual.
[00:06:08.00] - Gregg Garner
This is I think this is what we're we're we're implicating through this conversation is that Even though colleges should be the better venue, the more natural venue for discipleship, discipleship is happening in the church. Right. Because in the church, I we can concede that there's there's typically less accountability with respect to the institutional standards For how it is a church should operate. Yeah.
[00:06:29.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Because you can just start a church program. You should. Right?
[00:06:32.19] - Gregg Garner
Start in your living room. Right? And it's gonna be unregulated because there's a separation of church and state, right? There's a lot of freedom there. But as soon as you get engaged in, especially post secondary higher education, you're you're subject to the state. You're subject to the federal government. Like, there there are a lot of considerations that have to be made. And so the formality Then pushes the academics, and then the that now seems to distance you from what could happen In that environment, which again, I think lends itself better to discipleship than the church.
[00:07:05.80] - Laurie Kagay
I think even looking if we're just…
[00:07:07.50] - Gregg Garner
And I'm not talking about the church as in the the way in which we describe the the gathering of God's people at large.
[00:07:13.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Right.
[00:07:14.39] - Gregg Garner
I'm talking about the institutional, systematic presence of, an association that says attend these services and participate in these programs…
[00:07:26.60] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Right.
[00:07:26.89] - Gregg Garner
To be clear…
[00:07:27.30] - Jeff Sherrod
Yep.
[00:07:27.60] - Laurie Kagay
Well, I was thinking even about Jesus and his disciples. Like, for the most part, the disciples he picked were young men. Like, even an age of life that is… And then it It lasted three years. Like, with the best teacher in human history, three years.
[00:07:46.69] - Laurie Kagay
So to reduce it…
[00:07:48.00] - Gregg Garner
Argue, like maybe, like, maybe there there's there's words from Jesus that highlight there was more to do.
[00:07:58.80] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:07:59.50] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And and he's even like, at the book of John, he's like having to say things like, I'm glad that the Holy Spirit's gonna come.
[00:08:06.30] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah.
[00:08:06.50] - Gregg Garner
Because the Holy Spirit's gonna have to Remind you of things and help you to understand.
[00:08:10.60] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:08:11.39] - Gregg Garner
Because things are cut off for him.
[00:08:13.39] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:08:13.69] - Gregg Garner
Right? Things are cut short, like Like, thinking about the book of Isaiah and how Messiah is cut off for Daniel. Like, that was a reality he had to contend with. So we're saying at minimum.
[00:08:23.50] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. Mininum, Yeah. The best teacher ever.
[00:08:25.89] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:08:26.10] - Laurie Kagay
So so there's that. But I'm just wondering, like, you know, even the timeline of human life, because a lot of these are like, when you're when you're an adult and you wanna learn…
[00:08:35.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:08:35.79] - Laurie Kagay
Maybe you can come on Saturday.
[00:08:37.39] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Which is why I think church is…
[00:08:39.00] - Laurie Kagay
Like like, what is it even about the human life? But it's like, There has to be I mean, you especially, but we all have taught kids as well. And there's a difference the way you teach the Bible to kids And the way you can teach them Yeah. At a stage of life that's early to adulthood. And we teach adult learners too, and I love teaching adult learners. But there's also, like, there's just challenges to to it that are different.
[00:09:02.39] - Gregg Garner
It's true because a lot of the adult learners already gotten indoctrinated
[00:09:06.20] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah.
[00:09:06.60] - Gregg Garner
From their church discipleship programs that they now hold fast to concepts that they've not examined.
[00:09:16.10] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:09:16.39] - Gregg Garner
And so you ask them a question about a confession they have, a harmless question. Like, A student can say something like, the the blood of Jesus has atoned for my sins, and I can one thousand percent agree with them. But then if I ask them the question, what does that mean? They're gonna get offended because most most adult learners are and a lot of our students who get indoctrinated just from church and they can't explain it either.
[00:09:41.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:09:42.00] - Gregg Garner
But then, like, rather than going, I don't know. Can you teach me from God's word What that is and what that means, they're they're more just, like, collecting people who agree with them and then opposing people who don't.
[00:09:56.79] - Jeff Sherrod
I think this is such a good point because I think that sometimes when people think about discipleship, it still is a private thing. So I'm gonna go to a school. I'm gonna pick and choose what elements are I'm gonna add to my arsenal, you know, of things that I'm doing, but I don't like that. You know? Instead of saying I'm submitting in this process
[00:10:15.79] - Laurie Kagay
And it is a very cross-cultural situation.
[00:10:17.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Above my teacher, but it's, it's good enough to be well equipped so I can be like this person. But it doesn't, Like, you know, the Luke six thing there, it doesn't just say so you can pick up all the facts. It's so you can be like someone.
[00:10:29.79] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:10:30.10] - Jeff Sherrod
You know? And I think that's That's the character development where people are submitting to say, hey. I'm looking at teachers. I'm looking at, obviously, Jesus. You know, that's what we're looking at, but Hopefully, we're taking Paul's model of modeling him even for other people and trying to do as as opposed to I'm gonna go to college and pick up whatever things I want. “I don’t want that.”
[00:10:48.89] - Laurie Kagay
And how do you model your character their character if you only have them in a lecture setting? Look, you don't necessarily know what's happening in their home, at the dinner table, when you travel with them, when they're hit with stress, you don't know any of that. You only you know, that's kind of my college. Like, you only have that ninety minutes.
[00:11:06.20] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And whatever. I think you're making a very, very good point here, Jeff. Like, our culture lends itself to the convenience of Choosing what it is that, we think we need. And if there's an institution on the other side of that Requests that will accommodate, that's a great institution. But the institution that looks at you and says, I'll teach you, but, I'm gonna teach you.
[00:11:34.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:11:35.60] - Gregg Garner
And so here's the curriculum. Here's what we're doing. Because like a standard practice in a collegiate institution let let's do the compare contrast.
[00:11:42.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:11:43.00] - Gregg Garner
Collegiate institution in the church. If you go to a collegiate institution, The student gets to pick their classes.
[00:11:48.10] - Jeff Sherrod
Yep.
[00:11:48.50] - Gregg Garner
Right? You go to church, they say, here's our curriculum. Yeah. This is what you're gonna learn.
[00:11:54.10] - Gregg Garner
There’s one at at at, the collegiate institution. If a person feels like the class isn't a great fit for them, they can change it. They can reorganize. Drop the whole menu. And it's all on them. They get to choose. It it's not like the adviser gets to shift their focus Based upon how they've come to learn.
[00:12:12.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:12:13.20] - Gregg Garner
It's it's theirs. We're over here in church. If the pastor's like, I really believe you have a gift and it's time for you to explore this or whatever. There's all this trust.
[00:12:21.89] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:12:22.20] - Gregg Garner
And they just go, yes, pastor. That sounds good. Mhmm. And I'm not criticizing either. I'm just making observation. I I think if you have a collegiate institution where you have a counselor who, is operating in that guidance counselor capacity And really develops a relationship as a mentor with a student and then says, you know, you've been doing this. Like, I think we need to back up and Do this here. I just don't think it it is a broadly practice, way of of doing college so much so that if that happened, I think a a student would be weirded out. And I think if, a family heard about it, they're like, wait a second. You didn't get to choose your classes. They chose them for you. Mhmm. And you're not choosing what you wanna do in the future. They're telling you who you are. I know who you are. I'm your friend. I grew up with you. I'm your parent. Yeah. I'm whatever. But this this teacher, these people, these mentors Who are engaged in the discipleship process. They're supposed to have that singular focus of the development of that student so that they could Demonstrate the light and the fruit of having gone through this process of education, where in church again, if that happens in church, And I think people are just quieter about it. They're like, yeah, my pastor talked to me and said, you know, why are you doing that? You should do this. And so I explored it, and that's what I'm doing now. I'm taking six months off and doing an internship, and I'm doing audio visual for the church. And everybody's like, oh, yeah. That's awesome. Good job. Do do you see what I'm saying?
[00:13:52.00] - Jeff Sherrod
I totally get it now.
[00:13:52.70] - Laurie Kagay
And it's also interesting, like, I I know during the holidays, we talked about the lack of biblical literacy Even with pastors. But, like, you know, the stat for that is, like, ninety five percent of pastors don't have theological training. So we have this, like, authority given to pastors to speak over your life in that way. But what is it rooted in? Yeah. And then you have, you know, and then you have people who've spent their lives studying the scriptures, but you're like, you don't get to talk mean that way.
[00:14:17.79] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. That's that's legit. I know going into college, one of the things that, my church, Quote, fingers family told me to watch out for was that the academic experience of learning the Bible could quench The spirit..
[00:14:33.60] - Jeff Sherrod
Oh, yeah. I gotcha. Yeah.
[00:14:34.50] - Gregg Garner
And that, you know, I need to watch out for that because the intellectualism is is going to damage my spirituality. And and I went into it, like, I was trying to be, rational about it, but there was some fear. Like, I was motivated by fear.
[00:14:49.89] - Laurie Kagay
And I would say that's still common. Like, I hear that from students coming in still, that their parents greatly warn them…
[00:14:55.39] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:14:55.79] - Laurie Kagay
Against this type of learning. Well, it's like learning the Bible. But Yeah. Like
[00:15:00.89] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Like, learning science is is, like, way more acceptable
[00:15:06.60] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:15:07.00] - Gregg Garner
Than learning the Bible.
[00:15:08.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:15:08.89] - Gregg Garner
You know? Which is it. I get that if we're just anybody out there.
[00:15:13.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:15:13.79] - Gregg Garner
But as Christians, it's like There's there's not a Christian family that's gonna argue with the math curriculum. Right? They're like, listen, This is the order we're going. Pre algebra, algebra, geometry, algebra two, some precalculus. We're gonna do some calculus. That's the order. That's how we're doing it. Excel. You'll take a test. We'll see if you pass it. The kid comes home crying. I hate algebra two. The parent isn't gonna Go to the school and and then and say, why do you guys believe in algebra two?
[00:15:48.70] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. No.
[00:15:49.60] - Gregg Garner
Like right? They they they're probably gonna go…
[00:15:52.89] - Laurie Kagay
“I hated algebra two a lot.”
[00:15:54.10] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. I I didn't understand algebra. I I'm a I'm a I sell insurance now. I just I don't know what we need to do here, but my kids struggling. Do I need to get them a tutor? Like, they they cooperate. But when it comes to teaching the Bible, and we were like, here's and you know, at our institution, it's like, here's curriculum, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, the historical books, the prophets, the wisdom literature. Here come the gospels. Now we're gonna get to some Pauline letters and the general epistles, then we're gonna wrap it up with some apocalyptic literature and, you know, we basically go through the canon. Yeah. And, the the students start learning and getting exposed to texts that typically aren't done in the church. Right. Because the church has a different preoccupation. Right? So let let let me ask that question. Do you guys think that the church Is preoccupied with disciple making because that stat told us.
[00:16:51.39] - Laurie Kagay
Five percent.
[00:16:52.00] - Gregg Garner
Five percent are actually disciple making churches. So if Jesus is like, I want you to make Disciples of all nations. But churches aren't disciple making. What are they then? Is it it it seems to me like, they're mostly, either, faith affirming or, evangelical in that they're they're Preaching the gospel as to see converts come into a relationship.
[00:17:17.90] - Jeff Sherrod
What's happening. I mean, even that was how We we my church, like, growing up, we spent a lot of time. Matthew twenty eight, great commission was a big deal, but it what I think we met was converts. People, we're gonna go to a place. We hope they make a confession of faith.
[00:17:31.79] - Gregg Garner
And that's what it means to make a disciple.
[00:17:32.90] - Jeff Sherrod
You made a disciple?
[00:17:33.40] - Gregg Garner
That's what I was saying. Making a disciple is making a follower.
[00:17:35.79] - Gregg Garner
a a follower is just somebody who clicks And affirms, yes. I I'm following these people. I agree with their statements. I agree with their friends. And then
[00:17:43.29] - Jeff Sherrod
maybe the next part of discipleship is that They themselves get involved in that effort. You know? Like, so they got now they're they made a confession. So if you can help someone else make a confession, you're engaged in the discipleship.
[00:17:55.09] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. So we have a we have a crew in East Africa. There there was a recent it was kind of messy, but nonetheless, It's what it is. But, essentially, it was somewhat of a a merger and acquisition of ministries, between ours and another one. And in the previous paradigm Of the formally held, ministry, they consider themselves to be a discipleship making group. And so as I further explored what it meant for them to be disciple making students and such, they were mostly Just expanding their reach to, convert people over to Christianity. And then just like you said, the the the process then of discipleship was to teach those converts The basic principles of what it means to be a Christian.
[00:18:46.40] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:18:46.79] - Gregg Garner
Indoctrinating them. Don't explain it in the scriptures. Don't make sense of it. Just tell them what it is. And now Once that person has that, the way they get involved in discipleship is they make disciples, which means you do the same thing. So when I was told there were like these hundreds of leaders, I was like, wow. This is impressive. But then I found out that, half of them were teenagers. And some of them had, like, Four or five discipleship groups, and they were fifteen years old. Wow. Fifteen year old disciple maker.
[00:19:17.79] - Gregg Garner
But from what I understood what it meant to be a disciple maker, you had to be a disciple first.
[00:19:21.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:19:22.20] - Gregg Garner
And to get through a Jesus-centered Jesus way discipleship curriculum by fifteen, you're phenomenal. Right? You're you're better than Jesus because Not even he did that one. So it's like Congratulations. It but then when I when I talk to these leaders, I'm like, hey. This kid's only sixteen years old, seventeen years old. That's too much weight on them. They need to be in a discipleship process. They're like, well, they already know. It's like, what do they know? Mhmm. And and it's it's created conflict, and Mhmm. It it it's really difficult for some of these guys coming from that way of doing quote, unquote, evangelism and discipleship that, The way I'm talking about it feels bad to them. But every time I bring up scripture and ask them to compare it to the way in which Jesus did things, they have to go quiet Because it's it's what it says and it's what it is. But again, like so we basically named three types of entities at this point, right? The church, Collegiate institutions and then what we may popularly call para church organizations or which are often missions organizations and such. And all of them are claiming to do some form of discipleship. And I think we can agree we're holding that discipleship is best going to be done within the collegiate context. Right? So then my my question is what what then would the church context be good for? And then what would be what would the parachurch organization context be good for, or are they all the same thing?
[00:20:48.50] - Jeff Sherrod
I think that sometimes my my sense sometimes is that we overly divide, the the whole, like, church, parachurch Effort, to, you know, like because the the the work overall has been, like, to discredit parachurch organizations
[00:21:05.20] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Awesome.
[00:21:05.79] - Jeff Sherrod
As less than, you know, because every time I've gone to any conference and we talk about colleges, some at some point, they're all like, well, you know, we're all just really supporting the work of the local church. You know, that's our job is not we're only do we're only in this work because they failed at their job. And I'm like, I don't think that's true.
[00:21:24.40] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah. Like, because because what we're trying to say here is that may maybe there needs to be a better cooperation between That's right. Types of entities. Right? Because they have a modality.
[00:21:33.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:21:34.09] - Gregg Garner
They have a way in which they function. So I if if I was gonna give a crack at it.
[00:21:37.29] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:21:37.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:21:38.09] - Gregg Garner
I hold that the the post secondary institution is As a prime venue for an intensive discipleship where people can really learn God's word, And it is a it is a a termed period of time Yep. Where you just go deep and you live and you breathe The Bible. Right? It it gets there. Now I think the church is a great venue for, a a light shining local presence where you are living out the things you learned in discipleship, and you're keeping each other accountable to that on the very local level. Yeah.
[00:22:12.20] - Gregg Garner
And then I think that parachurch or the missions organization is the vessel or the apostolic venue.
[00:22:19.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:22:20.09] - Gregg Garner
For how it is that the other two entities, transfer over
[00:22:25.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:22:26.20] - Gregg Garner
What it is that's happening In the learning and the accountability into other context with other peoples.
[00:22:32.90] - Jeff Sherrod
It's cooperative effort Yeah. In between those churches. Yeah.
[00:22:35.79] - Gregg Garner
Yep. So, like, For a church to not be connected to a collegiate institution and then believing themselves To give their people the best discipleship experience, I think they're deceiving themselves. And I think for a collegiate institution to think that in and of itself, It can appropriately give a that that lifelong venue of accountability and the opportunity to live out what you've learned, they're also misleading themselves
[00:23:06.00] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. Right.
[00:23:06.40] - Gregg Garner
The the the church will do that. And then for both of those institutions To think that within their context, they they would inherently have the skill set to recontextualize this cross culturally or with In a different locality, they're also missing Yeah. Some things. And I I think in biblical language, we would talk about this as, The the, Paul apostle said that there's no other foundation that should be built on except for that of the apostles and the prophets.
[00:23:37.29] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:23:37.59] - Gregg Garner
Right? And, for the the prophets, Their their community organizing effort was to, both educate And to administrate. Right?
[00:23:51.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:23:51.79] - Gregg Garner
So you can see Moses who is ensuring the community develops their education of God's word, But also that they're organized and practicing accountability around it. So you see emerge in his leadership, the priesthood, which were the teachers, And then the judges, which were the administrators. Mhmm. And then that's the that's the community at large. So there's this cooperation between the two. Yeah. And then in the New Testament so that would be the prophets. Right? That were what we call the Hebrew scriptures. And then the New Testament then says, hey, we want to extend this to the nations. And God's it's too small to think it's just for Israel, as I would say. Right? We gotta we're a covenant to the nations. Let's let's make disciples of the nations. Now this is the apostolic Element. Right? Mhmm. So we're looking at the apostles and prophets. For Paul the apostle, he understood that the word of God gave us that blueprint or that paradigm For how it is that we exist as a community at large. And for me, discipleship takes its best shape in the educational institution.
[00:24:52.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:24:53.29] - Gregg Garner
Like I agree. Even by essence of the term. Right. So what would happen if churches, Like, just said, you know what? We do need to partner with the post secondary institution. And then post secondary institution said, we need to partner with some churches. Mhmm. We and and we need to understand each other. We need to learn one another. Because the the the benefit of the formalities in the post secondary institution Or that you you have implemented protections against wrongdoing. Right?
[00:25:19.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:25:19.90] - Gregg Garner
Like, you're concerned with that that professor that, Might get too close to a student in a way that's inappropriate. Right? Much like we've seen in the church. Mhmm. Particularly in certain denominations of the church that caught media for for that inappropriate behavior. So you want to implement these internal controls so as to create those safeties. But when the church and the post secondary institution work together and they bring each other that accountability, it the the The opportunity for keeping things, healthy and and holy increases Because you have people looking at it from two different angles. Yeah. You know? The the college student is now getting discipled in the word of God and really learning things. That college student now participating in church starts living it out, and then you have other people who've gone through that themselves who can see what zealousness, the younger student is trying to implement and then balance it with some wisdom.
[00:26:18.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:26:18.70] - Gregg Garner
And give them some advice instead of Seeing them as a threat or seeing them as, somebody who's out of line, they they because they themselves also Received a discipleship education that was, robust.
[00:26:34.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:26:34.70] - Gregg Garner
They they they're it just seems to me like, we'll all increase in our capacity for effectiveness for Christ.
[00:26:41.59] - Jeff Sherrod
I think so.
[00:26:42.20] - Gregg Garner
If we understand, the proverbial lane that we should Drive in.
[00:26:47.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Recognize that we all have different ones watering, ones you know, they're all doing this role, recognizing God gives the increase Yeah. To it. One of the questions I have is, you know, you started with saying that schools need to model themselves off of Jesus's model of discipleship colleges do.
[00:27:05.79] - Gregg Garner
Is that Christian colleges, I think, would do better. I'm not saying they have to.
[00:27:09.79] - Jeff Sherrod
I'm not yeah.
[00:27:10.40] - Gregg Garner
I'd say they that if they want to say that they're implementing a discipleship program, which not all of them do. Right.
[00:27:15.79] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:27:16.09] - Gregg Garner
But if they wanted to say they're implementing a discipleship program, the discipleship should mirror Our lord and savior's way of doing the life of the to the term.
[00:27:25.00] - Jeff Sherrod
That we have a school that's like, yeah. We're a discipleship school. You're looking at that. I'm Asking you personally Yeah. Yeah. What what do you what would you wanna see at that school? Because, you know, like, again, if we're saying Mhmm. I'm going to class. I'm not interacting with teachers that much. You know, it's we're really getting a lot of our cues for how to run college just from how colleges are run as opposed to the Bible. Like, you're looking at that and giving advice for, hey. If you wanna change some necessary things that are different than our wider cultural approaches to college, what are some of the things you're starting with?
[00:27:57.09] - Gregg Garner
This is good. So I think and and maybe maybe I know I've done this in in elements, but maybe it's It would be good to, just take the time to really, map all this out. B ut the I would look at Jesus' life and ministry Mhmm. And then identify What key elements exist that I know could be that he would want effectively translated into our context? So for example, Jesus, definitely didn't limit his, teaching to the classroom.
[00:28:33.59] - Laurie Kagay
Right. Mhmm.
[00:28:34.50] - Gregg Garner
So teaching was expansive. It it entered into the home. It entered into, the journeys that they took. They traveled together that their the classroom is the world in which they live. So if I was to that would be an element I would look for. I would look for a personability like, Jesus at one point could ask his disciples, who do you say that I am? In contrast to what everyone else was saying about him because he he knew they knew him.
[00:29:05.40] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:29:06.00] - Gregg Garner
And he he would communicate that He knows them and they know him. That they're like, vines and branches and that there's a connection between them. They they They share the kind of intimacy where he says I can confide in you.
[00:29:19.79] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:29:20.20] - Gregg Garner
So I would look for, an institution that is going to develop And and have that personal opportunity, which I think is is, can be a point of contention for a lot of people because of the formally mentioned possibilities of where things could go wrong, where there's maybe abuse of power or control. But like I said earlier, when that happens in the church, nobody's upset about it. But when it's happening at a college, it's like a little bit too much, but I would say that's that's a key element in Jesus' ministry. I would say that, Jesus in in Luke on the road to Emmaus, part of his the capstone that he wanted to give prior to his ascension Was to teach them all that the the the prophets, and the Psalms had to say. The law, the prophets, and the Psalms had to say concerning his agenda as Messiah. Mhmm. So I would want to see a biblical curriculum..
[00:30:20.29] - Laurie Kagay
Right. That covers the cannon. Yeah. Like, gives a comprehensive
[00:30:24.00] - Gregg Garner
Like, one of the issues that we run into is that, we are trying to do a biblical curriculum Even capturing general ed courses.
[00:30:32.29] - Jeff Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:30:32.79] - Gregg Garner
So that it fits into our curriculum. But we know that some institutions, those Those courses don't, transfer, as simply because the other institution, Even if it's a Christian institution can disregard the credit because it was too Bible. Even though we can hold wait. Look at the syllabus. At the elements here. We are teaching all the things that you teach in that class just straight from the Bible. It's like people can't get that.
[00:31:02.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Right now, they can't.
[00:31:03.29] - Gregg Garner
And so I I would I would want to see that a curriculum is is biblically based and not just in proof text.
[00:31:10.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yep.
[00:31:11.00] - Gregg Garner
But, like, it's it's platform is the Bible. I think the cohort consideration is really important. And, I think Regional diversity in your cohort is important as well considering Jesus' disciples. They came in, like, trios and duos Yep. And they came from different areas.
[00:31:26.90] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:31:27.00] - Gregg Garner
And so they they had to learn to embody that piece. And and, of course, him choosing the twelve is to, echo the twelve tribes.
[00:31:37.20] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:31:37.50] - Gregg Garner
And to, demonstrate the potential unity that comes from being unified under the lordship of Jesus. So that despite their diversity that existed in their geographic origins, they could demonstrate their oneness.
[00:31:50.90] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:31:51.50] - Gregg Garner
Because They learn to get along and make peace. And so you you need you you you like, a lot of institutions, they kind of I recruit people who are of a type. Mhmm.
[00:32:04.20] - Gregg Garner
You know, people go to the school look like that. People go to that school are like that. And, I think that, like, having a rich diversity is gonna be really important. And I don't just mean, like, ethnic or gender diversity, although those things are important. I'm talking about cultural diversity based upon geographics. Right. Like like that Regions count. Yep. And, I I would be looking for that. I would be looking for, opportunities to serve. Mhmm. In Jesus' curriculum of discipleship, the disciples had to learn to feed people. They they had to learn to organize. They had to learn to, even communicate, in in a effective way so that They they found themselves winning people over to, what it was that Jesus was envisioning for communities.
[00:32:57.29] - Laurie Kagay
Right.
[00:32:57.70] - Gregg Garner
So they there there has to be Some opportunity under the supervision of teachers to practice the mission. Right? I'd look for that. I would look for A faculty that is capable of answering questions. Like you what's that? That's a Keystone Jesus' ministry. Right? People could ask him questions and it doesn't matter who they were, whether it was lawyers or Just women alongside the road or blind people, he he could give them a biblically based answer that that made sense.
[00:33:34.90] - Jeff Sherrod
That and I think we should add, that was not just paired it from the other teachers.
[00:33:40.79] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. He was not a parent. Yeah.
[00:33:42.50] - Jeff Sherrod
He has this authority that they recognize that was distinct, from Mhmm. Just everyone else. Yeah.
[00:33:47.29] - Gregg Garner
Because there are a lot of institutions Where you have a question, and, they're either not interested in answering it or they feel the question Is outside the scope of their concerns. And and you just don't you don't get a a student being taught. You get a curriculum being taught.
[00:34:07.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:34:07.90] - Gregg Garner
And I So if I was to say in another way and something I've said for a long time is like for me when it comes to teaching, I don't teach classes, I teach students. And that's what makes even if it's the same title class, it makes the class different every time I teach it because There are different students in the class. Yeah. And I'm teaching students. So whatever it is I have to teach is gonna come out different based upon who's in the class. That being the case, yeah, I would say that you have to have a skilled faculty who knows how to, apply the word of God in a way that makes sense for their audience. And that's a high bar.
[00:34:44.30] - Jeff Sherrod
It is.
[00:34:44.69] - Gregg Garner
That's a really hard thing. I think a lot of Christian faculty, they they pride themselves on the fact that they've learned certain things about the Bible, whether it's the languages or the history, and they just wanna share information. But, discipleship is not about knowledge acquisition. Discipleship is about confirmation to the image of God's son.
[00:35:06.19] - Jeff Sherrod
That's right.
[00:35:06.59] - Gregg Garner
And and that's a character development consideration. So your faculty have to have some social capacity, social emotional intelligence Yeah. To be able to to transfer that, that character development into a student. And I think I I I think in that case, the more we keep talking, the more we'll see that, we we are making it very difficult for collegiate institutions as they are.
[00:35:31.80] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Yeah. I'm wondering. A discipleship program.
[00:35:34.59] - Laurie Kagay
Yeah. Which may explain how rare they are.
[00:35:36.69] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:35:36.90] - Laurie Kagay
I mean, they are hard to find.
[00:35:38.19] - Gregg Garner
You have to live in community. That's another thing. Mhmm. Like this doesn't work if you don't emphasize community. We know that in the book of acts, even right off the bat, They're trying to live out what they believe Jesus was teaching them. So I had them sharing meals together. It had them paying attention to the apostles teaching, It breaking bread in homes. Like, there's there was a community experience. Now given as they were trying to implement that, they had a lot to learn, but nonetheless, You can see that this is part of the value that they had extracted from their times with Jesus and they wanted to duplicate it. So the apostles teachings Yep. Were coupled with This practice of community. Yep. So so like making consideration for resource allocation and how to help the poor together. Like that that that happens in community.
And it's not like just a community life program where, You have a department at your university that's now concerned with the students getting out and doing community service or, the students having a, bonfire at the end of the month. I'm I'm talking about the kind of community where you have conflict, And and you have to learn seventy times seven to forgive each other. Yeah. And you you have to, engage the kind of Hope that patiently awaits the development of your fellow brothers and sisters as as you move through the very tough job of growing up in Christ. So I don't know. Those are Yeah.
[00:37:07.19] - Jeff Sherrod
I think that's that's…
[00:37:08.30] - Laurie Kagay
when the Bible comes to life. Like It is. Yeah. Those scenarios. I think that's coming. You can relate to to the scriptures. I think that's what our students enjoy.
[00:37:16.00] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:37:16.30] - Laurie Kagay
Like, they're like, I get it now.
[00:37:17.80] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Right.
[00:37:18.30] - Laurie Kagay
Like, I was reading this by myself in my room. I was puzzled. You know? But now they're like, I did walk with my teacher In Africa, we saw that person who was blind. You know, whatever it is, like, they now have greater context to understand the scriptures.
[00:37:32.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Right. Yeah. I'm sure we'll that was a great rubric, by the way. Mhmm. I'm sure we'll enumerate those in the show notes of the thing. And if you're listening to this, you're thinking about a college, you wanna do Discipleship, I think that'd be a great rubric to go.
[00:37:44.40] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And I and I I know that there are there are other institutions out there who are Also concerned with Jesus's way of making disciples. Yeah. But where where I think, things need to change is that, The the the colleges then who have the, the venue and the permissions the legal permissions.
[00:38:08.09] - Laurie Kagay
Mhmm.
[00:38:08.50] - Gregg Garner
To have students that, can, In a long term, nonetheless termed fashion, attend, yet, don't have What it is that we're talking about, their partnership with the church who likely has a vision for that or an idea for how that could work. There there there's something that they can do together that that can make this more possible.
[00:38:34.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:38:34.40] - Gregg Garner
And they might find themselves answering each other's Questions because they were never supposed to be separate. Mhmm. Right? They're supposed to be together. How weird would it be if we looked at the community of of Moses in the wilderness. And it was like the the priest had their individative operations to educate people, and the judges were over here Just taking care of the people's needs and well-being, and they never they never talked, you know, as if, like Yep. Joshua and and Aaron, Or I guess it was Miriam and Aaron. Initially, they just never had those conversations or work together for anything. Or in the New Testament, when it comes to Jesus's efforts, he he's he's both having the venue for their discipleship and their education. And then he's letting them know that the the the church comes after that. And this is a point I wanted to make. Mhmm. Because he's like, I'm gonna build my church, Matthew sixteen. Right? So I think sometimes we think disciples come out of the church. I I that's not in the Bible. In the Bible, disciples become the church. Mhmm. So it's it this is going to even, have us go back before even collegiate institution. If we had more time, I'd talk about k to twelve Yeah. Yeah. And and how biblical education needs to be laced into that. The Hebrews got it right. They they recognize, okay, our kids gotta go to school, but they're not gonna learn what we need them to learn, so they also gotta go to second school after school. We'll call it Hebrew school. And they're gonna learn the scriptures, and they're gonna learn how to read it. You know, they're not just learning Hebrew. They're learning how to read the Bible, and they're learning their faith. And they found that a valuable way To honor God and the the the faith that they have in God. And I think that for us with our Christian schools, Sometimes we're we it it especially k to twelve, seems like Christian schools are more Acting like, is some kind of moral fortress where you protect the kids from the outside forces of the world Mhmm. And maintain a form a moralism rather than equipping them with the necessary biblical knowledge so that they're not Having to unpack and unlearn, whatever it is that they barely learned or didn't learn getting to their young adulthood.
[00:40:51.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:40:52.09] - Gregg Garner
And and we've seen that. We've seen that in our own because we we do have our k through twelve. And the the the when our students graduate from the k through twelve, they're always and I think we know that as College professors, they always do a lot better with respect to biblical context.
[00:41:08.59] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:41:09.00] - Gregg Garner
Because they have had strong exposure, And they've already been taught that the Bible is is it's holy, but it's literature, and there are devices being used and that you have to interpret it before you can implement it are appropriate it. And, it to me, all of that takes place, with their their earlier education. Yeah. Right? So So if educational institutions and and I think k to twelve does a little bit better with the church because churches often start k to twelve schools. But, again, as those schools go through the formality process, the credit reports are like, we need you to separate from your church. Should Mhmm. And and for purposes along these lines, we don't want money being mixed. We don't want the money that's earned by the school to go to the church. Right. You know, etcetera, etcetera. And I understand those things. And and even though you have to do that, it doesn't, in my opinion, necessitate a conceptual breaking.
[00:42:05.19] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:42:05.40] - Gregg Garner
Of how they cooperate
[00:42:06.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:42:06.90] - Gregg Garner
And work together. But, yeah, I I I just I I I think that the I I won't drive home that point. It's disciples that make up the church. Yeah. The church doesn't produce disciples. Does that make sense?
[00:42:19.80] - Jeff Sherrod
It does. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm I guess we're I know we're coming close to the end of our time. I'm reading this book. I'll finish with this, but, I'm reading this book by Dennis Allen. He wrote this book called The Disciple Dilemma, but he was given he gave a talk recently. It reminded me. He was talking about that Christian higher education has to change to do discipleship along the lines of how Jesus did it, or what we're gonna see is just the sharpest decline in Christian higher education.
[00:42:50.09] - Laurie Kagay
Which we're already seeing.
[00:42:51.09] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah. Which we're seeing.
[00:42:52.09] - Jeff Sherrod
It’s like you know, you're not gonna be able to make it. Everyone's just gonna go to, Another college, but discipleship's not gonna happen. And when that stops happening, even along your we we don't have those disciples to to make the church. So It's a huge deal, you know, what we're what we're doing. And even when students choose to go to a college and say, I'm entering into the discipleship process, like, that's one moment, but that Changes the world, you know, when people make that decision.
[00:43:17.19] - Gregg Garner
It that's a great point. I I do think it would be good for Christian colleges To say whether or not they're engaged in the discipleship process. That would be helpful to a student because there are some Christian students who just wanna go to a Christian college and they don't wanna get involved in discipleship.
[00:43:34.00] - Jeff Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:43:34.19] - Gregg Garner
Maybe because their faith is very private or whatever it is that they hold. No problem. We respect that. But there are some of us who are institution, we want to engage you in the discipleship process. And I think there are some students out there who would like to know. They would like to know which of you are there Yeah. Are are, you know, engaged in the cyber ship process. Maybe that's you know, how how you do that is typically all you Create another club, right? Right. Another association that just says, everybody, you're the prerequisites of being an actual disciple making school. But maybe sometimes those things need to happen. But Nonetheless, I think as a student, if you're listening to this, it's really important for you to develop that rubric Mhmm. Of consideration because if you want to go and learn And become a disciple of Jesus, you got you gotta know what you're entering into.
[00:44:18.50] - Jeff Sherrod
Right.
[00:44:18.80] - Gregg Garner
Because it it really isn't enough just to go to a Christian college because not all Christian colleges are engaged in discipleship.
[00:44:25.09] - Laurie Kagay
Yep. Very few.
[00:44:27.00] - Jeff Sherrod
That's great. Well, thanks, Greg. Thanks, Lori. Thanks, everyone, for joining us, and see you guys next