College Conversations Season 2, Episode 3: “Avoiding Degree Mills: The Importance of Accreditation and Libraries”
Season 2 Episode 3 is now available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and YouTube featuring President Gregg Garner, Academic Dean Jeffrey Sherrod, and Librarian and Professor Benjamin Reese.
Episode Synopsis
This podcast discusses the topic of accreditation in higher education, highlighting its voluntary nature and the benefits it provides to schools. It also explores the pros and cons of accreditation, including financial support and recognition versus the challenges of meeting standards. The conversation then shifts to the evolving role of libraries, emphasizing the need for adaptation to meet the changing needs of students. The importance of providing services and resources, marketing offerings, and supporting academic programs is emphasized. The speakers also discuss the importance of a physical library space and the potential for libraries to preserve students' work.
College Conversations Season 2 Episode 3: Avoiding Degree Mills: The Importance of Accreditation and Libraries (Podcast Transcript)
[00:00:11.00] - Gregg Garner
Everybody, welcome back to College Conversations or as you can see here on our sign College Convos. My name is Gregg Garner, and I am here today With Professor Jeffrey Sherrod.
[00:00:21.69] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Hey.
[00:00:22.19] - Gregg Garner
And Professor Benjamin Reese.
[00:00:23.80] - Benjamin Reese
Hey.
[00:00:24.19] - Gregg Garner
And we wanna talk about something that, probably could be a little boring, maybe just because people don't know too much about it. I think for folks who are engaged in the process of accreditation or who Have been a part of the kind of teams that ensure accreditation is intact for other institutions. It it it could be more interesting because of their experiences. Now Jeff is our accrediting liaison Yeah. With the Association for Biblical Higher Education. And we started the accreditation journey, in two thousand seventeen,
[00:00:55.60] - Gregg Garner
I believed, as the Institute for GOD. In this episode, what I wanted to do was just talk about What is accrediting? Mhmm. Why is it important? Why why why do we do it? And then also, I'm I'm the kind of person that is, I I I think like you guys, critical about why we have to do certain things, especially when they don't make sense. Now I also know that just because it doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't mean Doesn't make sense. However, I think that if a person can't explain to me why it should make sense, I'm still in the camp. It doesn't make sense.
[00:01:27.00] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right.
[00:01:27.59] - Gregg Garner
So, maybe that'll come up, especially when we talk about things like library Mhmm. And, why why that's such a big deal to accrediting bodies. But, Jeff, I think we're gonna start with you.
[00:01:38.09] - Benjamin Reese
Okay.
[00:01:38.20] - Gregg Garner
Tell us what accreditation is, and and how does that relate not just to the individual of institutions of accrediting bodies, but all the way up to the United States Department of Education.
[00:01:49.59] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. So accreditation, if we're talking about, you know, For colleges, this is a like, in the American context, it's actually a little bit different than anywhere else in the world. It's the only country that has peer to peer, evaluations. So it's a voluntary process that people come together, and they decide as a, commission, you know, or they have representative…
[00:02:13.19] - Benjamin Reese
A leadership opposite of peer to peer would be like governmental bodies?
[00:02:16.19] - Jeffrey Sherrod
And that's every other Country is that there's accreditation experts that would come out and evaluate schools. American experience is a little different. But yeah.
[00:02:25.30] - Gregg Garner
I don't I don't even know how I feel about that. But we have no choice in it. It's what it is.
[00:02:29.50] - Jeffrey Sherrod
That's that's yes. That's the convention we have. And I think there's pluses and minuses to that as I thought about it. But there's Yeah. So they you know, it's a voluntary process schools sign up for. And then, you know, if you're working with the department, of education, they have accreditors that accredit the accreditors.
[00:02:47.90] - Gregg Garner
So that’s like for us at CHEA?
[00:02:49.30] - Jeffrey Sherrod
That's CHEA. That's right. Yeah.
[00:02:50.69] - Gregg Garner
Which stands for?
[00:02:52.30] - Jeffrey Sherrod
The Council for Higher Education Administration. Yep. And so, you know, they look at the different major accrediting agencies like the Association for Biblical Higher Education.
[00:03:03.00] - Gregg Garner
Which is one of the older accreditors…
[00:03:03.80] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. It started nineteen forty something. Mhmm. Well
[00:03:08.19] - Gregg Garner
I know last year was their seventy fifth anniversary.
[00:03:10.59] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right. Yeah.
[00:03:11.50] - Gregg Garner
We can always do the math backwards.
[00:03:13.19] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Forty seven. So, yeah, they, you know, they come together, and they have a set of standards That they're saying that they just say every school that's accredited has to meet the following standards, and then you can be accredited. And so The way that they evaluate that is that you do years and years of, paperwork to prove that you're of are those things. They have evaluation teams that come out and make sure that what you put put on paper is accurate. And, you know, And and then, yeah, and then it's this process of kind of moving through stages of accreditation. So whether that's, you know, kind of an applicant status first, that's what we started at. And then, you know, you go to a candidate status, which for the United States Department of Education, they see accredited. They don't see a difference between an accredited school and a candidate school. They don't have that designation, but the individual creditors do. Mhmm. So and then you finally move to, accreditation. That's not like, once you have it, you're done forever. You maintain accreditation by maintaining those standards. And those standards themselves are really standards that those there are some of the Department of Education ones, but the great majority of them are standards that The schools themselves have come up with, to say, what do we determine as a group? We at least want the minimum standards to be for someone to say they're accredited. In terms of why schools do it, you know, I think it one, there's there's money that's available, when schools do it, but, also, you know, I think it does…
[00:04:39.80] - Gregg Garner
Money that's available to them by the government By the government. By private institutions.
[00:04:44.39] - Jeffrey Sherrod
They're grants. Yes. Just, you know, like, if you're applying for a grant, you can say you're accredited. That's already They've already done some of the work, so the grantor doesn't have to look into it as much…
[00:04:53.50] - Gregg Garner
To see your legitimacy.
[00:04:54.60] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right. Yeah. And same thing for admissions as well. Like, when parents are looking at this or schools, So if they if you're accredited, they at least know that someone, an outside agency, has looked at your school. They've done some evaluations. You know, they recognize that there's been, some some expertise and some excellence, that that's been demonstrated to get to that point. Mhmm. So, yeah, that's that's kind of what it is and what it's about.
[00:05:20.39] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And I I think where you were going was that also accreditation allows for other collegiate bodies to easier transfer credits.
[00:05:32.60] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:05:33.10] - Gregg Garner
If they know that that other college body has been vetted or approved by that accrediting institution.
[00:05:42.00] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. That's right.
[00:05:42.69] - Gregg Garner
Because they share the same standards.
[00:05:44.30] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yep. Yep. And so some of those standards are, you know, real specific. So if you wanna Have a class. You have to have that class has to meet for, you know, total number of what they call contact hours. Mhmm. That you're in a classroom, in a seat, that you have homework standards. So it's not like, you know, “degree mill” is a term that gets thrown around…
[00:06:01.19] - Benjamin Reese
Sure.
[00:06:01.39] - Jeffrey Sherrod
A lot. Schools that you can kind of pay for degrees and do it, those are very common. So accreditation is a way of legitimizing that you're not a degree mill. Yeah. Yeah. And so for transfer credits, that's real helpful because then they can They can say, alright. We know that this school has been vetted, and they meet certain standards and will accept credits easier.
[00:06:21.19] - Benjamin Reese
How often are the standards updated?
[00:06:23.50] - Jeffrey Sherrod
So there's a formal review at least for ABHE, and that's what I know most about. There's a formal evaluation every ten years. We're actually in one right now. Okay. So I've been on some committees and task force, last year about revising some of the standards. So, yeah, every ten years, they review…
[00:06:39.69] - Benjamin Reese
You guys just talk on Zoom and…?
[00:06:41.30] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Talk on Zoom. Yeah. Meet in the annual meeting. They're kinda doing a big one right now. They're reducing. There's a hundred and sixty two what they call essential elements, Which is like, you know, what are the specific things that we want?
[00:06:52.80] - Jeffrey Sherrod
They're cutting that down by, I think, almost to a hundred. So
[00:06:55.60] - Benjamin Reese
Really?
[00:06:56.00] - Jeffrey Sherrod
It's a lot of those things that are getting cut out.
[00:06:58.69] - Gregg Garner
And that will introduce more freedom to the respective industries?
[00:07:00.80] - Jeffrey Sherrod
The goal the goal the goal of, Of accreditation standards wasn't to be missionally prescriptive. That wasn't the goal. Like so, you know, they they really want Schools to have the freedom to say, here's my mission, and I'm gonna achieve it with the things I'm doing. But what they're looking for is that You have financial solvency that you have, you know, learning resources that are in place, you know, things that faculty who Mhmm. Have some decision making power, things that they're still gonna say are prescriptive Right. But they don't wanna be overly prescriptive in your in your mission. So they're taking out a lot of that stuff to give schools more freedom.
[00:07:37.50] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And I would assume you appreciate that.
[00:07:42.10] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Anytime that I think, yeah, that they're doing less overreach to allow this I think that we you know, schools get together, you know, they they're they're I think often from a work of God. Right? It's like Someone did something…
[00:07:55.50] - Gregg Garner
Christian schools?
[00:07:56.19] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Christian schools. Yeah. That's what I in the context. Yeah. Like, association of biblical education. You know, they're looking at Christian, Bible schools and and and seminaries. But yeah. So it's like when schools get together, they're trying to meet a specific need for a particular place. So So I think it's great that schools have the freedom to be like, this is why God has us here. And we might look a little bit different than that major school over there, but we can still do it, and it's still legitimate within some Sure. Standard. Yeah.
[00:08:22.80] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Alright. So, You know, our audience are students Yeah. Prospective students, current students, but also parents. And a big question that a School would get right off the bat is is the school accredited.
[00:08:35.39] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right.
[00:08:36.00] - Gregg Garner
So what I wanna hear from you guys are what what you consider to be the pros and cons for accreditation?
[00:08:41.79] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:08:42.10] - Gregg Garner
Like, what what is what is a benefit to accreditation? What is a challenge related to accreditation? Well, and maybe that's related to, Something that you would have insight on based upon the role that you play with respect to our institution. Like, Ben, you're You're our our librarian, which I don't think most people understand all the school someone has to go through to become a librarian. Again?
[00:09:05.50] - Benjamin Reese
I didn't either, but I figured it out.
[00:09:07.70] - Gregg Garner
But but it is it is a lot of school. Yep. And, your your master's in library science, UT?
[00:09:13.89] - Benjamin Reese
UTK. Yep. Yeah. Masters in library and information science.
[00:09:17.29] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. It which which is no small task. Having having seen your your workload, I was I was thinking, man, you probably could have done the same workload and become a lawyer, if not More than a lawyer with Yeah. Everything you had to do. It was a lot of stuff. So I am interested, like, from even your position with respect to Books and and, the the trends that we see now with regard to, having an audio book versus A digital book or a a paper book and the different kinds of, digital journal memberships…
[00:09:53.20] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right.
[00:09:53.50] - Gregg Garner
I'd love to hear about, like, how accreditation is taking into account all of these modalities. For for reading and learning and listening. And then, Jeff, from from your position as our accrediting liaison and somebody who serves on On a body that even helps to make consideration for these new essential elements, like, what what again are the pros and cons?
[00:10:12.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll start out here. I think that for, let me let me start with some cons. I one of the things that accreditation does is it does slow down schools, because you have you know, when you're starting a program, the you know, there there's gonna be a number of things that the accrediting body wants to see before you can do that. Not saying that that in itself is bad, But even if you have those things, you have to wait for committees to meet for approvals to happen. With this, the accrediting body has made a lot more leeway in making this a faster process.
[00:10:45.20] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah.
[00:10:45.39] - Jeffrey Sherrod
But, traditionally, that's been a real hard thing is that it can slow things down, where schools need to be nimble.
[00:10:52.20] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And and in my experience with ABHE, they've been fantastic about making particular considerations for the institution itself instead of binding us to some kind of generic take on where we should be and how we should go through it. They actually have taken the time to look at us Right. And make consideration for us. So I I do acknowledge that A con would be it can take some time to make some things happen, but at the same time, concede to the fact that accrediting bodies are, aware of this.
[00:11:22.60] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:11:22.79] - Gregg Garner
And some of them, like, they're trying to choose to adjust and help.
[00:11:26.29] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yep. Another one is I mean, it's not a it's not a cheap process Going through accreditation, you know, there's the direct cost that you have, like, to to do it itself, you know, the the money that's owed to your accrediting body, but all the indirect costs too.
[00:11:37.89] - Gregg Garner
And the indirect costs add up.
[00:11:39.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Oh, yeah. It adds up. Lot of time. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of, you know, travel. It's a lot of, bringing people to your school. So, you know, that's and I think when schools get into it, they have to know. Yeah. There's there's a cost.
[00:11:52.00] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Because I know a lot of institutions that started the accrediting journey and couldn't finish.
[00:11:56.29] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. That that happens. Yeah.
[00:11:57.29] - Gregg Garner
And then I know some who started, couldn't finish, restarted Mhmm. Couldn't finish, and then are trying to restart start again.
[00:12:04.29] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. That definitely happens. And I think that, you know, it takes a part of even the way it's been explained to me is What they're looking for even sometimes in those years is, financial stability over years, enrollment stability over years. So it's not just like I have all the things today, but can you have them over a period of time and show some show some stability? But so, yeah, all that, you know, that cost adds up. And then I think that sometimes there are, you know, standards that We have peer institutions, and I think that this is what I said. I think there's some pros and cons in this, because you get evaluators who are not Experts at every school. They might know a lot about their school. Mhmm. And the accrediting agency does offer training for some of these people. But, you know, if I'm talking to someone from our accreditor, they're gonna be much more knowledgeable about the standards and how it's applied than maybe one person from a particular school that might still be an evaluator for you. And so I think that that's sometimes where you kinda take some we and we've had some evaluators who have been excellent.
[00:13:07.50] - Benjamin Reese
So if I'm a parent And I see that a school has an ABHE accreditation Logo on their website or whatever…
[00:13:15.60] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right.
[00:13:16.29] - Benjamin Reese
What as a parent can I know about that school? And what should I not assume is in place at that school just because they have a credential?
[00:13:23.00] - Jeffrey Sherrod
I think that's a good question. So one of the things that you Kendo is that there's been external evaluators, and I think that that that is important. Right? Like, someone who was a third party source came in and said, yeah. This is This shows shows legitimacy. But more than just legitimacy, they believe that that school is, meeting its mission. And I think that that's, like, that's really what we have to be about. Like, schools should be able to say this is what we're about, and then they should be able to prove that they do the thing that they're about.
[00:13:55.39] - Jeffrey Sherrod
I think that's one thing. And then but what it doesn't show necessarily, I think this is important when it comes to accreditation, is that accreditation doesn't make you because it's so mission central.
[00:14:06.50] - Benjamin Reese
Mhmm.
[00:14:06.60] - Jeffrey Sherrod
It doesn't make you a different school. I'm gonna say also say the a better school. If the school is not, like, you know, you can't it's not gonna fix a a school that's not Doing well anyway. I don't know how else to say that. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's not gonna take a school that's struggling and not really meeting its mission and has culture problems And then gonna fix all that.
[00:14:28.00] - Gregg Garner
Mhmm.
[00:14:28.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
You know, you still wanna look at the life of the graduates. If I'm a parent, be like, what are your graduates doing? What are they about? What kind of testimonies do you have? Because that's still, I think, the thing that should we should be proving what we're doing by more…
[00:14:42.70] - Gregg Garner
So you're saying while while an accrediting association will assure families that there are some essential components and some standards that are being met, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are producing the kind of students that they hold themselves out to be producing?
[00:15:05.20] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. I don't think that, and maybe maybe hold themselves out is not the best way of saying it. But it if you're looking for a school that's like, alright. This school is automatically good, and it's good for me because it's accredited, that's not accurate. You still have to look and say…
[00:15:20.79] - Gregg Garner
Okay. So so you're saying a school can be accredited, and I'm just just for example's sake. And, everyone that graduates from them is boring. Right. Like, they can still be accredited and graduate boring people. That's what they produce. They produce boring people.
[00:15:34.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
That’s what they’re about. Yeah.
[00:15:35.20] - Gregg Garner
And so accrediting is not going to turn them into interesting people.
[00:15:38.60] - Jeffrey Sherrod
No. And I don't think it's it's it's not even trying to. Yeah. You know? It's not trying to change who that's for.
[00:15:44.29] - Gregg Garner
Of the institution Can exist independent of its accreditation. Right. But accreditation brings some kind of accountability It does. For certain shared standards…
[00:15:54.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yep.
[00:15:55.39] - Gregg Garner
Between the communities of collegiate institutions.
[00:15:57.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. Shared standards. And, also, you know, it does ensure that because they're concerned about Stability. They want schools to be around today and also tomorrow and Yeah. You know, be able to teach out. So one of the ways they look at that is say, do you have processes down, you know, Budgets, all the stuff that should be there, and they just make it that make it clear that you have to have that kind of stuff there.
[00:16:16.20] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:16.70] - Benjamin Reese
I got a degree from an institution that just shut down. Doesn't look good When you go out there.
[00:16:21.29] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right. Yeah. That's that's that's part of it. It's like this school is on probation, and it just shut down, and none of this none of the, you know, people have the jobs. Like, We're not saying, oh, at least they're accredited. And it's not probably I wouldn't recommend a parent to make that kind of decision.
[00:16:35.20] - Benjamin Reese
Right.
[00:16:35.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
But I think it does answer some questions for parents. It does it does help them to say, yeah. There's been people that have looked at this.
[00:16:42.79] - Gregg Garner
There's I think the assurance that a third party group of folks who have some ideas to what post secondary education should look like have come in and said, yeah. Right. They're they're they're they're meeting the basic Yeah. Essential standard components…
[00:16:58.20] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right.
[00:16:58.50] - Gregg Garner
Of what that should look like In terms of telling us they could be around for a little bit.
[00:17:03.39] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:17:04.70] - Gregg Garner
That's good. Now, Ben, for you, with respect To the library sciences and books, I'm curious just on on your thoughts.
[00:17:11.79] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah. I mean, it's a broad broad topic.
[00:17:13.79] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. I'm sorry about that. No.
[00:17:15.29] - Benjamin Reese
It's fine.
[00:17:15.70] - Gregg Garner
I think for me personally, I just know that a recommendation we often get is that we need to have more library holdings. And, typically, the the recommendation is given to us by some librarian that's in their seventies that may not even know how to open up a Kindle or or an iPad and and access a digital holding. And so, I think as far as, cost effectiveness and efficiency, we've discovered that, these these digitally native Young people coming up into college, it's it's no problem for them to, access a digital work and the overhead For producing the digital work is lower. And in that case, it's of lower cost, typically
[00:17:56.59] - Benjamin Reese
Mhmm.
[00:17:57.00] - Gregg Garner
Even though I know that there are variations in that. So I I I know that we we I mean, gosh. It's it's always a constant recommendation. Did it happen this last time?
[00:18:06.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
No. we didn’t. Well, I don't think we actually got anything about the library, did we? No.
[00:18:10.09] - Gregg Garner
That's fantastic.
[00:18:10.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Wasn't one thing.
[00:18:11.29] - Benjamin Reese
Standard ten was good.
[00:18:12.40] - Gregg Garner
That's it. That's that's something good about you you've been. That's fantastic. But I know that for the longest time, I just I just felt, like, irritated by it because it was, like, not acknowledging what like, the present. Not even the future, but the present. Yeah. So now but now I just kinda wanna know from you because I'm just, I'm not a library science person,
[00:18:31.90] - Gregg Garner
I'm kind of ranting from the position that I'm in, which is, increase efficiency and lower cost for students and, make it more available on more platforms. Like, When I was in law school and I had to go travel, like, to do a summer internship, I would literally have to Xerox copy my big old hornbooks and casebooks. And we're talking about binders, three binders, just so I can do my reading over the course of several months. Now law school students, it's all on their for their Phone. Yeah. Things Right.
[00:19:03.90] - Benjamin Reese
Things have definitely changed.
[00:19:05.09] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. So tell tell tell us about it.
[00:19:07.40] - Benjamin Reese
Well, yeah, I think as, like, a concept, The library, I think most people think of a brick and mortar building with shelves of books. But the idea of a library, especially as it pertains to higher education, is That you want to ensure that students have, the resources that they need to succeed In fulfilling the goal academic goals of the institution. So stated that broadly, that can take on a lot of different permutations. And, unfortunately, we've we've sort of become, like, our idea of a library has become a little bit sclerotic To the degree that we're not able to respond to the new needs that students have. And really the needs that students mostly have, I think in an academic environment in terms of the resources they need to succeed academically is not primarily, physical resources. It's mostly library services. Yeah. And information, equipping them with…
[00:20:06.79] - Gregg Garner
There's just so much information out there. Right?
[00:20:08.50] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right. There's too much information.
[00:20:10.20] - Gregg Garner
Like a curator or, somebody who directs…
[00:20:14.00] - Benjamin Reese
Because it used to be like, wow. We have a library with three hundred thousand volumes. That was very impressive.
[00:20:18.40] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:20:19.00] - Jeffrey Sherrod
But now someone curated it.
[00:20:20.40] - Benjamin Reese
And somebody curated it, because, like, people didn't have access to a lot of books. Yeah. Now we have a kind of a flip situation where students have access to too much information. They really, In terms of what a library can offer, it needs to offer mostly services for things like literacy, just digital literacy, and, research, and Knowing how to evaluate sources and all that.
[00:20:45.20] - Jeffrey Sherrod
And truth claims.
[00:20:46.09] - Benjamin Reese
Truth claims. Yeah. So those kinds of things, because students have more and more access to information, but their Academic abilities native academic abilities are lower and lower. So they're coming in without, really an ability to set …
[00:21:01.40] - Gregg Garner
in, like, a a high school. In a high school, there's there's not many people there, checking out your library holdings or developing your digital capacity for research. And so, you you end up having a high school student graduate without much experience. And I I think most people going to the public library are like moms with little kids.
[00:21:23.20] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:21:23.50] - Gregg Garner
These days. Right? Like, I got because I remember growing up, going to the public library. That was, like, the big field trip. You learn you get your library cards. You learn how to check things out. Yeah. And it was just super exciting. And I I just don't see that with our college students coming in anymore.
[00:21:38.90] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah. No. I don't think people naturally People just don't know how to interact with the library anymore, really. They need, again, they need training and skills. You can…
[00:21:48.09] - Gregg Garner
And you're saying too, like, the library itself can be much more expansive than we typically We think with respect to book holdings. Right?
[00:21:53.50] - Benjamin Reese
Right.
[00:21:53.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. Because, like,
[00:21:54.09] - Gregg Garner
Like, as a music major, we had a library, and it was all records.
[00:21:57.29] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah.
[00:21:58.09] - Gregg Garner
So so those those albums could have been, that that was a library.
[00:22:02.50] - Benjamin Reese
Right. Right? And so, like, you know, for instance, libraries oftentimes have, like, library web pages that offer a curated list of, like, sources online to find information. So that's not so much like Having your own physical holdings, but being a place that can properly…
[00:22:21.50] - Gregg Garner
But speaking of physical holdings, would it be a library? Let's say take for example, I'm a community develop major at the institute. Yeah. And my my focus is on, sustainable building.
[00:22:30.90] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Mhmm.
[00:22:31.20] - Gregg Garner
Could the library hold a variety of equipment That a student could check out, and that would be considered a library?
[00:22:37.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:22:38.00] - Gregg Garner
And would we would we let the accrediting association know our library includes all these tools?
[00:22:42.40] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah.
[00:22:42.59] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. Holdings are holdings. So they can be they can really be.
[00:22:46.00] - Benjamin Reese
In the public library, Nashville's public library, you can, like, check out seeds.
[00:22:51.09] - Jeffrey Sherrod
You can check out garden tools. You can check out board games. You know, all that to consider.
[00:22:54.09] - Benjamin Reese
So they they've they've I mean, kind of slowly, but they libraries are still —
[00:22:57.90] - Gregg Garner
Wait — how do you check out a seed? Do you give the seed back after?
[00:23:00.29] - Benjamin Reese
That’s what I asked.
[00:23:01.29] - Jeffrey Sherrod
I was like, what they give it to you. So it's not really checking out in terms of you have to return it. Uh-huh. Because was like, do I have to return the plant?
[00:23:07.90] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Explained it to me was, like, if you collect seeds, put them back in the pouch and bring it back. But, like, do you expect to do it? And they're like, we do not expect that.
[00:23:15.09] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah. So there's a lot of different things. I mean, I know at, you know, the Bible school I went to, you could check out puppets for doing, you know, evangelistic Yeah. Plays. So…
[00:23:27.20] - Gregg Garner
So, basically, a library then is, an inventory space…
[00:23:32.90] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah.
[00:23:33.29] - Gregg Garner
That is a collection of resources specific to your mission.
[00:23:38.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:23:39.00] - Gregg Garner
That you should be able to access and And return. Yeah.
[00:23:43.90] - Gregg Garner
Do you feel like we're doing that at our institution? And do you feel like other institutions are really thinking about the present need for libraries? Because I have to admit, like, this is a really cool conversation for me because my ideas are going, you know, all the Yeah. The ways in which We could collect resources that students can access to help them do what it is that they're trying to do. Yeah. But at the same time, It's like, are we able to market this and let people know our library has seed holdings, you know, whatever it is.
[00:24:16.70] - Benjamin Reese
I think it's something that I don't know. It's an exciting frontier, but I don't think a lot of people are doing, doing enough. Like, I I think that We could, you know, have maybe a repository of, like, a plus student papers So that if a student is worried about how to do a certain type of paper.
[00:24:37.20] - Gregg Garner
Oh, yeah. That's great.
[00:24:37.90] - Benjamin Reese
There's a repository they can go to and say, oh, this is what an exegetical paper It's like Yeah. They got an a on this paper. Yeah. So it could even include, like, student produced resources.
[00:24:47.40] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. That's good.
[00:24:48.70] - Benjamin Reese
So there's just a lot of different options. Yeah. Like you said, like garden tools or, like, cameras or other things that we
[00:24:53.50] - Gregg Garner
Any kind of Sometimes
[00:24:54.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Sometimes it's interviews, you know, with with other people, language learning tools…
[00:24:58.79] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah. And
[00:24:59.20] - Jeffrey Sherrod
All that kind of stuff. And just kinda preserve stories even from people around the world. Right.
[00:25:05.09] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. And I'm I'm familiar with that aspect of it. I just think when you when you have an accrediting body that's gonna come in and look at your holdings, like, are they are they making a big deal over the variety of holdings, or are they just counting holdings.
[00:25:18.70] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Well, I think that for us, the question that they're primarily asking is, does the library resources, support the academic programs? You know, so for us, we have our our programs are in biblical studies and community development. And when you when we give a report for both of those things, we show strong because we have holdings lots and lots of holdings Basically.
[00:25:40.00] - Benjamin Reese
In both…
[00:25:40.29] - Jeffrey Sherrod
of them two categories. In just those two categories.
[00:25:42.09] - Benjamin Reese
As far as physical liabilities.
[00:25:43.59] - Gregg Garner
But then for us, based upon what you're saying, there's some work To do with respect to, accumulating the inventory that would excite A a a young person's involvement in library, like, research, like yeah. Like, even some of the things you're talking about, it'd be so cool to have, Like, I guess it would be a computer with a hard drive or a cloud drive that that has categorized All of these, interview videos that we have over the years, particularly with our developing country communities So that people could create a history out of
[00:26:22.59] - Jeffrey Sherrod
That’s right.
[00:26:23.29] - Gregg Garner
And then if there seems to be a living component to the library because a student could take that information And then help either categorize it, organize it, tag it.
[00:26:31.40] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah. Yeah. The librarian is you know, they're they're a service worker. They're trying to help students to Connect information. They're they're an archivist. They're a researcher. You know, they're they take on an important role in an institution. You know, I heard someone rec you know, say it this way. I wouldn't say how they say it, but they they said the library is the heart of the academic institution. I don't know if I would say it quite that What that way but I get the idea that you wanna have as much resources around that just support students Learning more Yeah. And having access to the the right kind of information Yeah. That makes them a better student.
[00:27:07.59] - Benjamin Reese
But it has you know, like, I think, It has to be a surface. So
[00:27:11.20] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right.
[00:27:11.59] - Benjamin Reese
You have to think through how to make these things relevant to students, to make them intuitive to students. Because longer long, long gone are the days where you can kinda put up a library, and a student will look at a library and know how to interact with that institution. So they need, like, some help.
[00:27:27.50] - Jeffrey Sherrod
And I think too along these lines, like, one of the stories I've heard recently, and I think that this is good, is that They've said some of what they think is can be most detrimental to a library is when they get these huge donations, and they build these big buildings.
[00:27:40.79] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:27:41.50] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Because it it can it can just turn into we're good because we have holdings.
[00:27:45.40] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:27:45.90] - Jeffrey Sherrod
And then some of these really large schools get I
[00:27:47.90] - Gregg Garner
I mean, we have schools trying to dump On us, all color holdings
[00:27:51.50] - Jeffrey Sherrod
because it's it's really about services Yeah. And connecting to students and
[00:27:56.09] - Benjamin Reese
It comes down to services. Yeah.
[00:27:57.59] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. So so, Ben, if you were to dream a little bit about the the library ten years from now, what would it look like?
[00:28:04.00] - Benjamin Reese
Oh, ten years from now?
[00:28:05.50] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. The institute. What would it look like ten years from now?
[00:28:12.40] - Benjamin Reese
I think it would I mean, I think it would have a lot of the components that we've talked about So far, I think that I think in terms of a physical space, it would be a space that could, like, ignite people's imaginations for what's possible. And, like, you know, in terms of, like, checking out videos or interviews or seeing, connecting with work that's going around the world or getting tools or ideas, and then a place where they can, feel, safe to ask academic questions.
[00:28:43.59] - Gregg Garner
Because I think that's where where you're you're you're pushing me towards is it seems like you would you'd probably like to have A couple people manning that library available to serve and help people find things at any time that you're open. Yeah. Right? Which I think I think is beautiful. Because even when you're talking about the kind of holdings, I don't think I would need to check out a digital file As much as I would need to be shown how to access it from my home computer. Right? So there that service is there, but there are some other Tangibles that maybe need to be in there that I would need to check out.
[00:29:17.59] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah.
[00:29:18.00] - Gregg Garner
Yeah. Like, for example, let's say, At our school community development, we're talking about textiles, and and we know now that there's, like, three d printing that's involved in all of that. And a student's exploring it that you'd have a three d printer to check out.
[00:29:34.20] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah. Right.
[00:29:34.59] - Gregg Garner
Or you have an an even an old sewing machine.
[00:29:37.00] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Yeah.
[00:29:37.20] - Gregg Garner
To check out Yeah. And that somebody there could show them how to use it.
[00:29:40.90] - Benjamin Reese
Right?
[00:29:41.09] - Gregg Garner
That's the kind of stuff.
[00:29:41.90] - Benjamin Reese
That's the kind of stuff that I think. And I think and, again, I I think A place where students feel like, oh, man. I have a question about this homework or I don't know what to do here. I know that just the place to go to, I I feel comfortable. Because I think students today have Really hard time asking for help.
[00:29:56.90] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:29:57.20] - Benjamin Reese
So they need a place that kind of inspires.
[00:29:59.00] - Jeffrey Sherrod
And I think that's where physicality still matters.
[00:30:01.29] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah.
[00:30:01.50] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Like, as I know we I agree. Like, in terms of the holdings, it makes much more sense to do them all digitally.
[00:30:06.79] - Gregg Garner
Yeah.
[00:30:07.20] - Jeffrey Sherrod
But in terms of a space that students can go to Yeah.
[00:30:10.40] - Gregg Garner
I'm just picturing, like, a big open space with, like, nooks
[00:30:14.79] - Benjamin Reese
Right.
[00:30:15.09] - Gregg Garner
And and stations.
[00:30:16.40] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah.
[00:30:16.79] - Gregg Garner
And we know, like, it's combined support. Separated on, like, Overarching knowledge factors. Right? This is the science section. Yeah. This is the technology section. This is the philosophy section, and and it's designed to accommodate the types of questions that would merge Yeah. In those respective fields.
[00:30:32.90] - Benjamin Reese
Gonna move towards, again, more student generated Our, material that then, like, kinda feeds back into the library. Like, let's say they rent out a sewing machine. Yeah. Maybe they take a picture story of what they did with that sewing machine and how it went, and then that gets archived with something now.
[00:30:51.00] - Gregg Garner
If students know That they're becoming a part of history in that way.
[00:30:55.20] - Benjamin Reese
Right.
[00:30:55.59] - Gregg Garner
They'll be much more, excited to participate. I think otherwise, it sounds like an assignment. But if you realize, no. This is gonna be now held on archive for other people to access. That that's that's pretty promising. I I really do think with our institution that we should do that a lot more with a a bunch of the kind of work product that students produce. Like, you know, they do the city projects. Yeah. Like, having, like, a city model, putting it in the glass case
[00:31:21.00] - Benjamin Reese
Right.
[00:31:21.50] - Gregg Garner
And then having that, then you could turn that into a picture later when another new one Replaces this one. Rendered Yeah.
[00:31:29.50] - Gregg Garner
There's just there's just a lot like that, but you have to have the the resources to pay the people because The service oriented is not a good thing.
[00:31:37.40] - Jeffrey Sherrod
Right.
[00:31:37.79] - Gregg Garner
And in my experience, most people wanna buy the books. They don't wanna pay the salary.
[00:31:41.59] - Benjamin Reese
Yeah. And you gotta really think through how you're going to, Which is really what library science is about, how you're going to categorize and organize what you take in so that it is available. And that takes some forethought to get through.
[00:31:54.70] - Gregg Garner
That's a lot of fun. Well, guys, thanks for this conversation on accreditation and even gotten to the library science a little bit. Everybody, when you are thinking about school and you're thinking about a college, accreditation is an important component, and it's A good idea for you to have a basic knowledge. Hopefully, this episode gave you a little bit of that and that you can make a more effective decision When it comes to choosing your school, and then also think about that library space. And it sounds like what's more important than evaluating the physical space is evaluating the philosophy of those Who are running that space and figuring out how you can be a part of a future that is gonna archive what you do to be a part of history. We'll see you guys next time.
Show Notes
Institute for GOD
Gregg Garner
For comments, questions, or topic ideas, email us at conversations@instituteforgod.org