College Conversations S2E10: Diversity: A Person, Not an Idea (Transcript)

Summary

In this episode of College Conversations, host Laurie Kagay is joined by Professor Benjamin Reese and Institute for GOD President Gregg Garner to discuss the important topic of diversity.

As a Christian college, the guests explore what true diversity means from a biblical perspective. They challenge the common metrics used to measure diversity, arguing that diversity is about celebrating the unique individuality of each person, not just hitting demographic targets.

Gregg Garner shares personal stories of navigating diversity as a minority student at a predominantly white Christian college, and how he learned to embrace his cultural differences rather than feel tokenized. The group discusses how Christian communities should cultivate an environment that allows everyone to authentically express themselves, rather than forcing uniformity.

This thought-provoking conversation offers a vision for diversity rooted in the gospel - one that sees each person as a unique treasure created in God's image, rather than as a box to check. It's a must-watch for anyone interested in how Christian colleges and communities can foster true unity in diversity.

Transcript

[00:00:11.09] - Laurie Kagay

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to College Conversations. I'm Laurie Kagay. I'm here with two of my colleagues and friends, professor Benjamin Reese and institute founder and president Gregg Garner. So we're back on College Convos today, and what we're gonna talk about is the concept of diversity. As someone who I think works with Gen Z a good amount either in recruiting students or teaching students, I know this is a a concern that is at many of their, you know, forefront of their mind and their hearts. But something I often see is sometimes a definition may need to be worked out a little bit. Yesterday, we had an event, called the community talk where President Garner heard kinda concerns of students. And they were just working through friendship realities and things. But they were also working through diversity matters. And, like, one of the things, Gregg, that you said in that talk that I really loved is that for Jesus, friendship is the culmination, not the beginning. Mhmm. And that diversity takes work.

[00:01:11.50] - Gregg Garner

Mhmm.

[00:01:11.90] - Laurie Kagay

And I think so I think those were some thoughts for me as I suggested this topic for this podcast is, I think colleges, you know, nationwide, probably worldwide say they care about diversity. But as followers of Jesus, what do we mean by that term?

[00:01:29.20] - Gregg Garner

So because that's not the way right now. Diversity inclusion issues.

[00:01:32.79] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:01:33.40] - Gregg Garner

Like, this is this is not something that is limited to Gen z or Christian colleges. The workplace at large wants to but I agree with you. Like, what do we mean by diversity?

[00:01:43.50] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:01:44.09] - Gregg Garner

I know for me in talking to the students when I when I was speaking about diversity, I tried to specifically highlight that the real easy way to highlight diversity would be to merely look at gender or race and and and culture and such.

[00:02:02.29] - Laurie Kagay

And that's, like, the way we have to report it as

[00:02:04.79] - Gregg Garner

a college.

[00:02:05.40] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. How much you know, what's your gender ratios, and then what's your race?

[00:02:10.00] - Gregg Garner

But what about when Paul the Apostle says that in Christ, there's no male or female? And he starts listing, like, cultural things, barbarian or or, like class status, barbarian sync, cultural things, Jew, Gentile. And what do you do now? How do you look at diversity? And I think as a community that wants to live according to scripture and the revelation that exists in it, our definition of diversity has to extend beyond those types of things. And for me, diversity exists inherently in the human beings participating in a community when they authentically express their individuality. So the Bible will say that although we are one body, we are individual members of it. The individuality of people in a community is important. For Jesus, a knowledge of self was part of his prerequisite for discipleship because you had to deny yourself. How can you deny a self you don't know? Right. So this this recognition that we are indeed a self and then having to learn what that means and who that is, and then to develop even beyond how we have understood ourselves up to that point. Diversity to me then is making room for all of the different people, not just as you meet them, but even over the course of time as they grow. And even we grow and we change. So diversity in this context for me is more about the individual personality, cultural, preferential nuances that make somebody a someone. And how you can have unity without having to create uniformity, which is the easiest thing that people try to do. Right? I wanna be a part of that group. They all wear, Nikes, specific kind of Nike. They're all wearing Nike Maxes. We're all gonna wear Nike Maxes. They they have their hair spiky in the back and flat in the front. I'm gonna do spiky in the back, flat in the front. Uniformity is, like, one of the easiest ways that people give that visual unity. A team, put them all in the same uniform. Military shave their heads in uniforms. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about a legitimate unity that exists within diversity. So how do we help people stay true to who it is that they are, but in Christ. Because who it is that we are independent of Christ, that person needs to die and and be, risen with Christ. Right?

[00:05:02.00] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:05:02.50] - Gregg Garner

But as we are growing into that image of God, the there there's still a maintenance of the person that we are because we've been shaped by our experiences. There's a a legacy with our parents and grandparents and great grandparents. There there's a way of seeing the world that was introduced to us by the institutions that we're a part of and the culture. So how do we make room for everyone to diversely express themselves and it not be something that is, occasional, but is part of the fabric of who you are. So let me say this another way that's, like, real practical. When I was being with with those young people at that town hall community talk, and you could tell that what they wanted to do was make it so that unity was when they all did the same thing together rather than understanding that they are diverse people. Some of them don't wanna do what the other ones wanna do. So I tried to give that example with professor Sherrod saying he likes fishing. I don't mind fishing. I don't wanna go fishing as much as he wants to go fishing. I like playing soccer. He doesn't mind playing soccer. We even play on T's for it. He doesn't play soccer as much as I wanna play soccer. But we're not mad at each other when I go play soccer and he goes fishing. And I don't feel like he's neglecting me as a friend and neither does he do the same. In fact, we wanna have a community where you can have soccer people and fishing people and all kinds of people. And and that's because our unity is really based upon our values, not our habits, not not even, our, those our appetites. Like, our our unity should be based on that which comes from the spirit, which is connected to the word, which gives us our principles and our values. And you can have a lot of diversity in that. I can value time spent with others, and now there's a milieu of possibilities as to how I express that.

[00:07:08.50] - Ben Reese

Yeah. That's a really helpful, just different angle to see things, you know, because it's I I feel like when we think about diversity, we think about just collecting certain types of people into

[00:07:21.69] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:07:22.10] - Ben Reese

But you could still collect certain types of people into an environment that then conforms them to some sort of false unity where they don't have the freedom to express themselves. And and that that would be a real tragic reality that exists in our world today.

[00:07:38.80] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. I went to a, at the time, what felt like a predominantly white college.

[00:07:45.30] - Ben Reese

Mhmm.

[00:07:45.60] - Gregg Garner

It was a private Christian school in California, and I I came early to be a part of the gospel choir and to play basketball. So before official school started, we came for training and and, rehearsals. And, at first, it was like, these are my people. And then as soon as everybody showed up for school, I was like, wow. We are the minorities. Athletes and gospel choir people are we're not the majority anymore in this school. And, we all sat at the same lunch tables. I think it really got pointed out to me that I was a diversity representation person when it was either, like, Martin Luther King Junior Day or some kind of maybe Black History Month. And, me and a girl named Laura, who was actually the voice of Nala in Lion King. Me and her, she's black. And, this guy named Jared, who's a sweet guy, great voice, but he's a white guy. He sang the solo. And me, I think I could fit either Asian or Hispanic. And then her, black, we were the backup singers for this song, this diversity song called which is a Negro spiritual. He's not heavy. He's my brother. And it was just somewhat comedic at a certain point because we were rehearsing, and we just Laura and I looked at each other, and we're like, we are the the the token black and brown persons here where the the guy and the girl. And still with lead in in lead vocals is the white guy. But we just had to laugh about it. I I didn't understand that I was a a diversity promotional material. So they would have, like, student preview weekends. You know? Yeah. I would lead worship at the main campus for that diversity, I guess, appeal for the previous students coming in. And then the music I did, it was it wasn't the kind of music that the lead guy was doing there. He he, like, played an acoustic guitar, kinda did this with his head, and saying these kind of songs where I'm, like, working from a synth and, having hip hop beats behind the worship music. It was it was like a different thing. But I just thought, initially, oh, they're just appreciating me. And then I I I got into actually, in my junior year, I got into the planning committees. And then I found out, oh, we're planning diversity.

[00:10:16.70] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:10:17.60] - Laurie Kagay

And we're plants. I was like,

[00:10:20.60] - Ben Reese

how did that make you feel? Like, I mean, not to be a a psychologist here, but just like, did you feel like, oh, there was something

[00:10:27.89] - Gregg Garner

On the one hand, it was like, yeah. I get it. I mean, growing up, when I think about what kind of Asian or Hispanic role models I had, they they were so far and few between. Like, and if they were, they were typically caricatures. Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Antonio Banderas, and George Lopez. I don't know. Like, these were, like, the few people that I could look at in media and say, oh, yeah. That's like that's like me. So I I did I didn't mind being put in a position where someone else could say, oh, that's like me. But when I looked out at the crowd and they're all white, I'm not sure if I was thinking that's like me. So I was I was definitely processing it. I don't I don't think I felt like I thought it was more funny, entertaining Right. Because I couldn't, like, change myself. And and I'm also part white, and I have a really strong white name, Gregg Garner. And so I I'm I'm used to code switching and having to move amongst cultural groups. So it it it wasn't there are challenges for sure. Challenges that I had to, accommodate even in my diction. When I first went to school, people would always be like, What? What? And I just thought people are hard of hearing, and then I learned I had to, curve out my consonants, make them a little more harsh. I had to, bite down a bit more on my vowels, And all of a sudden, people could hear. So it was but I didn't understand it as I had an accent or I had or speaking slang. I thought something was wrong with their ears. So there was a lot of education of self awareness on my part going into a now predominantly white community when I came from predominantly Hispanic and black. So it that that was that was interesting, but the diversity conversation was there from the beginning. But here's what I've also noticed. I don't I don't like being forced to create diversity according to that criteria.

[00:12:41.79] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:12:42.10] - Laurie Kagay

Right. Because it like, you forced it for what? For the photo op

[00:12:47.70] - Gregg Garner

For somebody else to say for somebody else to say, oh, you're diverse.

[00:12:50.50] - Laurie Kagay

Right. And that's I think there is, like, even in in reporting and other things, it's like, show us your numbers. Show us how these things well, is that really a good representation, or are they succeeding

[00:12:59.39] - Gregg Garner

in that particular recently, like, with you Right. Right. And and, like, it was told of me, hey. Really glad you have Lori on the team. That's great for your diversity. You gotta like to have a woman on the team. And I and I'm like, first of all, Lori was on the team before I even, like, thought about diversity. Second of all, she's on the team because she's the most qualified, and she's the best at this, not because she's a woman.

[00:13:24.10] - Ben Reese

Mhmm.

[00:13:24.60] - Gregg Garner

That's just the truth. Right. But it gets me diversity points. It feels weird. Like, don't we want people who because I I guess the the concept is we want to give people who maybe historically didn't have a chance a chance.

[00:13:39.79] - Ben Reese

Mhmm.

[00:13:40.50] - Gregg Garner

But what if some of us don't want your chance? What if some of us just want to be treated fairly and and let us earn our spot? That's how athletics work. Right? And nobody's nobody's looking at the NBA and going, man, we only got a few white people from the United States. They're all coming from Eastern Europe and and whatever. Like, we gotta change that. We need to do some diversity inclusion. Start including white people in basketball. We don't do that in sports. We're just like, all right, who's doing the best? Right. Who's doing the best that you can make? Yeah. Right. And then, of course, there's some fantastic historical white basketball players. I'm not being racist here. I'm trying to highlight the the diversity scenario sometimes becomes such a forced consideration

[00:14:27.29] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:14:28.00] - Gregg Garner

That we're not really looking at the person anymore. So you become a type.

[00:14:32.20] - Laurie Kagay

Well, I know you've taught me that even because I I have done marketing and communications and those things. I remember one brochure. It was years ago.

[00:14:39.89] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:14:40.39] - Laurie Kagay

But it was for our k twelve. And I showed you the brochure, and I said, now, you know, so and so has an issue with this, because the kids are all white and blonde and whatever. And you and so I, you know, I let you weigh in. You're like, well, that's our school. And it really surprised the person because they were like, but it shouldn't be. We should be more diverse and we should be this way, but you're like, but we're not. Like, that's what our school looks like. So why are we forcing this issue?

[00:15:08.29] - Gregg Garner

Reality is even with several hundred white people, there's diversity.

[00:15:13.70] - Laurie Kagay

Right. And I think that's some there's even some legislation trying to catch up to that. Like, so for instance, there was affirmative action for a number of years even in college admissions. Now it's been overturned, and they're like, no. We don't wanna practice race based admissions anymore. So an applicant is an applicant regardless. But similar in advertising where I think there was this pressure show of diversity, they're now saying, you need to show what's real in that way. So, you know, if you have one black kid at your college campus, don't put them in every photo shoot because that's not a real representation of your school. Mhmm. But then at the same time, like, none of it's really get to the things to where we're talking about is there is diversity that's much deeper than you even have.

[00:15:57.89] - Gregg Garner

To that coin because, like, take for example, you it sucks if you are the black person and you like to be in photos.

[00:16:06.20] - Laurie Kagay

Right.

[00:16:07.60] - Gregg Garner

And the school's like, hey. This isn't I know you like to be in photos, but you're black and everybody else is white, and we don't wanna be fake about the the black person being all photos. That's messed up.

[00:16:16.60] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:16:17.10] - Gregg Garner

Like, he likes to be in photos. Let him be in photos. I I I I think this is one of those things that we make a big deal out of because we have the totally wrong rubric of consideration. Yeah.

[00:16:27.70] - Laurie Kagay

That's where it feels like we're fighting over this the small things, and we're we're losing out on it.

[00:16:33.29] - Ben Reese

So if a like, if an undiscerning person goes into, like, an institution or group of people, they're just looking at certain obvious statistics as their rubric of diversity. Instead of what you were talking about previously about being an environment that promotes the inherent diversity of the human being creating God's image.

[00:16:53.79] - Gregg Garner

Mhmm.

[00:16:54.29] - Ben Reese

Like, what would be if you were to put a few characteristics of rubric together of, like, what a discerning person would wanna look for in an environment to see if true diversity is being promoted? What would what things would you look for?

[00:17:08.40] - Gregg Garner

I I I would look to see if every individual that was part of that community or part of that team was being taught or given the opportunity to share who they were. Because I'm saying the diversity is part of God's creation. God created us, You know, in Ephesians two, when it speaks of the manifold wisdom of God, that Greek term itself is in reference to the botanical gardens that would have existed in Hellenistic cultures and the diversity. That was expressed through, the different types of flowers. And that wisdom of God, that manifold wisdom of God, that diverse wisdom is to manifest itself in his children. So, like, I have five kids, and they they all look similar because they come from me and their mom. Right?

[00:18:05.09] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:18:06.29] - Gregg Garner

And even there are aspects of them where they can act similar.

[00:18:10.09] - Ben Reese

Mhmm.

[00:18:10.40] - Gregg Garner

But they are extremely different. Each of they're very different.

[00:18:14.50] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:18:14.79] - Gregg Garner

And I feel that my role as a parent is to help them understand that being themselves is great. So, Malaya, for example, she's my fourth born. She is the one that likes sports the least. When she watches sports, kid you not, since she was five years old, she wanted to be the ref. And and, like, her favorite show has been, kids baking championships. And she watches it, and she doesn't wanna be the kid who bakes. She wants to be the judge. So this is her. And so I I'm I wanted to have other experiences. So we did get her to play soccer all one time. We had her run track and cross country. And and she came out going, I don't wanna do that again. I don't like to do that. So it wasn't that I wanted to stop her from having diverse experiences. But through those experiences, as she's manifesting who she is, I have to accommodate her diversity in our family considering the other four are athletes.

[00:19:16.29] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:19:17.00] - Gregg Garner

And, her her older sister, Genesis, is a dancer, and she's a dancer too. And she's actually probably more into dance than Genesis was, and Genesis is right now considers herself a dancer. So that's gonna be interesting how that plays out. So she was given the opportunity to consider playing basketball, because here's the thing, she loves reffing. Right? So she knows all the rules of basketball. She knows all the players. She knows how plays work. She doesn't wanna play. So her older brother who loves basketball is like, blah, you have to play basketball. She's like, I wanna dance. What I'm trying to communicate is that even in a family I mean, you're a twin.

[00:19:53.70] - Ben Reese

Mhmm.

[00:19:54.70] - Gregg Garner

Are you like your brother? No. We're very different. Are you cool with that?

[00:19:58.00] - Ben Reese

Yeah. Yeah. It's great.

[00:19:59.00] - Gregg Garner

But I bet people are weirded out because you're twins.

[00:20:01.90] - Ben Reese

Yeah. They always ask.

[00:20:02.90] - Gregg Garner

You're supposed to be the same. Right?

[00:20:04.20] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:20:06.00] - Gregg Garner

And and I would imagine as a kid growing up as a twin, that's part of your adventure is figuring out who you are independent of them.

[00:20:14.20] - Ben Reese

Yeah. Exactly.

[00:20:15.59] - Gregg Garner

But I think that's that's what it means to be human. Because God did make us even the the subtle hints that God gave us, like our thumbprints, our fingerprints, you know, and the diversity that exists in our DNA strands. And I know people are, like, debunking all that with seven billion people. There's a duplicate out there or whatever. But, the the point being that diversity is already there. Now you need the eyes of faith to mature it into its its full blossom. When you have a bunch of flowers and they're all in the bed before they sprout, you know, they all look the same. There's no diversity. But if you can cultivate them and nourish them and water them, they'll grow into their diversity. And to me, that's, I mean, that's why I love our community. There's so much diversity. Like, we don't have to be you guys don't have to teach like me, and I don't have to teach like you. You don't have to have my interest. I don't have to have your interest. We do have to have the mind of Christ. Right. So I am interested in what you're interested in, and you should be interested in what I'm interested in. Mhmm. But it's not because we wanna create diversity points.

[00:21:27.70] - Laurie Kagay

Not at all.

[00:21:28.59] - Gregg Garner

It's because we are enjoying this beautiful life God's given us. And if God wants like, take for example, one of the things that was hard for me initially is that in having to integrate with a predominantly white community, a lot of my preferences had to take super backseat. So much so that the things I really enjoyed, I couldn't do anymore. And, like, I love rap. In the nineties, I was rapping like anything. But at my white school, rap was trash. Seriously, most people are just like, those were gang bangers and all this kind of stuff. And I'm just, like, having to listen to gospel gangsters all private in my room, because I couldn't, it it wasn't it wasn't an expression that could be accepted. So as a musician, I had to figure out what was everybody into. And most of the people around me at that time, in the nineties, is or in Christian schools, were into ska. And to me, ska was just like, like hyper reggae. Like, I would rather do reggae. And which I did. I did reggae, but but they wanna do ska. And ska was these what it would look like to me just white guys who who didn't know how to dance and and and and and other white guys who were in school marching band and wanted to be in a rock band. So SKA became the opportunity for them to do something. And I had nothing against them. I I I ended up filling in for a bunch of guitar players in SKA in in college. And but the the process I went through was really hard in order for me to assimilate and accommodate the those cultural preferences in that environment. Because in that environment, the way that it felt, it may not have been what they were trying to teach, but the way that it felt was that this was this is what's good. This is what's healthy. This is what's right. That stuff, that's wrong. That's bad. That's not healthy.

[00:23:28.09] - Laurie Kagay

Mhmm.

[00:23:29.00] - Gregg Garner

When I first went to school, like, my jeans at the time, I was probably like one hundred and twenty five pounds. But the jeans I wore were size forty four. So I'd have to loop them, double loop them, and I wore double XL shirts, but they were layered. And, but the the other people in school were, like, driving up in their Eddie Bauer edition Ford Explorers from Oregon or something like that, you know? And, the comments they would make to me were like, why are your pants so big? And and it wasn't like curiosity. It was like a critique. And because I was the minority, I had nobody to support the position that says, why are your guys' pants so fitting? And and given there's there's all kinds of reasons why, people dress the way they dress. But as an example here, to me, if diversity was a legitimate consideration and something that was taught at my college in a way that would have been beneficial to everyone. There should have been some roommate for a person like me without it becoming a ploy to attract or give an image of diversity. Just like, let let me express myself. Let let me like, this is where I'm coming from. That that's why I like in our our community, we we find ourselves learning greetings in other languages from some of our students. We we explore the activities that they do. If we find out they do something that we don't know how to do or what that's about, we we let them exhibit that. And and it's the watering process and the cultivating process that's allowing what's in them to emerge. Like, take for example, we have some in the past, we've had Hawaiian students. And one of our Hawaiian students at a certain point what what what do they call the art where they do the dancing? There's a name for it.

[00:25:25.09] - Laurie Kagay

Hula dancing.

[00:25:25.79] - Gregg Garner

Is it

[00:25:26.09] - Laurie Kagay

just hula dancing? Maybe this.

[00:25:28.59] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. I think you're right. It is hula dancing. Yeah. Yeah. So the yeah. It is. She was she was doing the hula, and and she was able to express herself. And as you as you watch it, it's just so beautiful. But at the same time, she's the only one. But it's like you're now seeing her. That's her. She she's she's not brown in that moment. She's not necessarily even Hawaiian in that moment. That's her, her person. This is a part of who she is. And to me, the development of diversity in a community is cultivating the individual expression of persons in Christ, and then allow and then allowing them to all dwell in the same garden together. And that that's that's what we need to be doing as Christian communities, cultivating that. And so as a college, that there's a lot of intentionality that has to be deployed into how that works. But we don't have to create because your question was about this rubric. Right?

[00:26:36.00] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:26:36.20] - Gregg Garner

We don't have to create a rubric that says, okay, we want to mirror the population. So we need fourteen percent African American students. We need seven percent Asian. We need thirty percent Hispanic. We even though I've gone to seminars Yeah.

[00:26:48.90] - Laurie Kagay

That's sometimes where that's what they want you to do. Right.

[00:26:51.59] - Gregg Garner

I I like, whoever god sends us, they're gonna come here because there's something that god did in their heart. Now we recognize they're part of our drug diversity. It's a person from rural Alabama versus urban Chicago, they can both be white. They can both have the same last name, and they're gonna be so different. And it's now about appreciating that diversity that's in them. And I just think the conversation needs to move away from from race and gender and culture, especially because in Christ, there's none of those things.

[00:27:28.90] - Laurie Kagay

I agree, and I love that. And I think I I see that. And you can, I think, see it in small ways? Like, I know I've been to even Christian colleges where it just feels like all the students dress the same. Or they you know, like, music choices are another one. I remember, like, I don't know. Just reflect my husband loves music, and that's, like, a a part of who he is. But I remember, like, rejoicing because he was in this worship band, and I was like, the fact that you're in this band with all of your music, priorities and, you know, influences with this other guy who has, like, complete other I was like, that's that's a moment of beauty because you guys are, like, together in Christ producing something.

[00:28:04.40] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:28:04.79] - Laurie Kagay

You know? And not just, like, well, I don't like the way they do that.

[00:28:07.50] - Gregg Garner

Yeah. I really think this is how we as believers enlighten the world because they may think that we are united because or, yeah, that that we have what we have as a result of having, I I guess, derogatorily, people would say be you're brainwashed. You've been brainwashed to think that this is what's good, and this is what's right, and this is how you do things. And instead of recognizing that the bind of Christ, which is a washing. The mind of Christ has set us free in such a way that we just love and appreciate whoever it is that's in front of us and wanna know them more and wanna learn them more. And but I do think the metaphor of the garden is important because a student who comes to our school, they're they're not blossomed yet. That's why they're here.

[00:29:05.09] - Ben Reese

Mhmm.

[00:29:05.59] - Gregg Garner

And who they are now is not gonna be who they are in four years from now. So we have to get we have to recognize that while there are some components of consideration, like where they came from, the culture, the institutions, the the religious affiliation, while that can all play into who they currently are, that may not have much weight into who they become depending on how god works with them.

[00:29:33.00] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:29:33.50] - Gregg Garner

Because, like, for me, I ended up my I went into music to do, like, some kinda hybrid of r and b and rap. And I I actually recorded albums that were pop rock for junior hires. I and I did that because this was part of my calling in Christ because it wasn't about my preferences or anything anymore, and this was the platform God gave me. So who I thought I was coming in and who I ended up being don't match, but it was God's plan. So I I think it is important to recognize that diversity is fluid as it's emerging. And and if that's that's why you can't token stereotype anybody.

[00:30:21.20] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. And I I think that's also it's part of it feels like why it blossoms in college. Like, college is kinda the first time you're living outside of your parent Right. Your parents' home.

[00:30:32.29] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:30:32.79] - Laurie Kagay

And then you're with people that you may have had, you know, nothing in common with at all, maybe even in the same exact room as them. And they're you know, you're from Chicago and they're from rural Alabama or whatever it is. And, like, it brings to the fore then even a discovery of self. Yeah. Oh, I do this. I don't even know I did that different from the way everyone else does that because I've only lived with people, you know, in my family or whatever. And that kind of community building on the colleges, I think, makes it a real ripe time for that discovery.

[00:31:03.59] - Gregg Garner

I agree. And in that case, if we're gonna celebrate diversity, I think what we have to celebrate are the people that are in our midst.

[00:31:14.29] - Ben Reese

Mhmm.

[00:31:15.20] - Gregg Garner

I think the problem sometimes when people celebrate diversity is they celebrate a concept instead of the actual people that are with you. So just imagine a college community that's predominantly white, and it's diversity week. And so they're celebrating diversity. So they feel like they have to, maybe they do three chapels that week. Monday chapel's on Martin Luther King Junior. Wednesday chapel is on, I don't know, watchman knee. Friday chapel is on, Sojourner Truth, and everybody there is white. Like, there's the the the diversity celebration there was to celebrate something that isn't in front of them, isn't a part of who they are. And if people are like, well, everyone needs to learn black history and everybody needs to learn about Asian history. I I agree with you. But when you're celebrating diversity, you should be celebrating the diversity of the people that are in your midst.

[00:32:14.79] - Laurie Kagay

That's what I love with your hula example. Like, that was my thought. Like, I think it's a much, more beautiful way to look at the world. Like, if you look at a community or what they're putting out, and then your your criticism is, well, it's not diverse enough. You're missing the girl showing you the hula dance from our culture. You know, you're no longer celebrating because you're worshiping a concept of diversity Yeah. Rather than, like, I wanna look at the person right in front of me, celebrate the gifts that God is in them and, you know, continue to discover in that way. I think it's what you're saying. Like, it's a way to tutor the world. Like Yeah.

[00:32:51.70] - Gregg Garner

Because in the in the world, you're not you're not good until you conform to the image that society has prescribed as good. Where as believers, we believe that God is doing a good work in us, and he wants us to do good work. And so there's this transformation that's taking place where ultimately we are more authentically becoming ourselves in Christ.

[00:33:19.90] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:33:21.00] - Gregg Garner

So I don't want you to conform to something I think is good or is right. And I like, I've had to consciously personally. I've had to consciously acknowledge this in myself because I I I have I definitely have, ideas as to what is good music, what's good style, what what is, like, something that's aesthetically pleasing, but that's not shared by everybody. And just because I'm in a position of authority to promote or to even authorize or or delegate that preference As a leader, what I've learned to do is just love and acknowledge the person that's given the responsibility or that is embodying what it is that they believe is them in that context. And it's it's fun. I I enjoy it so much, and and you learn beauty and joy in in a way outside of something you can control. Because, ultimately, I think these measures on diversity is just another element of effectuating control. It's giving criteria that says, unless you fit this mold, you're not doing good.

[00:34:42.69] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah.

[00:34:43.40] - Gregg Garner

And, I mean, there was this guy who was having a diversity talk at the, the Q conference here in Nashville. Gabe Lyons and some others put together. So it's really a good conference. This guy was talking about and everybody was so moved on. I think it was Korean. And he was just talking about how, he envisions a world where, you know, you have someone like John Wesley and Charles Wesley is writing these great hymns. They're Anglican. You know, there's these are British English people. And then he's like, but then there's Andre Crouch doing gospel. He's like, I envision a world where Andre is invited to the table with the Wesley brothers to write songs together. And people are getting emotional in the crowd. And I'm like, man, if I was Andre, I would not wanna go right at the table with the Wesley bros. I'd be like, why can't you come right at my table? Like, why aren't we comfortable with sometimes we don't want certain Like, we're Nashville, and I know so many people that hate country music. They're like, I hate country music. And Nashville's like, we call it Music City, but the home of country music. Definitely. I'm not gonna be mad at someone because they hate country music. And why why why why would I do that? But But I think when it comes to the diversity scenarios, we're like we're like, you hate country music? That's messed up. Country music is another diverse way in which people express themselves, and you need to accept and affirm my country music loving.

[00:36:13.09] - Ben Reese

Mhmm.

[00:36:14.19] - Gregg Garner

And and I'm like, dude, like, it's just the musical style. It's an expression. It's not my person. Now if you're gonna hate me, my country self, that's messed up. Right. But if you don't like the the musical expression, hey. Like like well, let me give you another example. I guarantee you there are times in your lives where there was a an aspect of expression that normally you would not appreciate, wouldn't even enjoy, but it was authored or it came out of someone you love. Didn't it change the whole thing?

[00:36:50.40] - Ben Reese

Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

[00:36:53.40] - Gregg Garner

Can we reorient as believers? Can we reorient the world? Turn it upside down just like the disciples were were said to have done in the book of Acts for people because, really, it you cannot like country music until you meet the person you love who now sings a country song, and you're like, I like that song. It's because you like them. And to me, diversity is about the person. It's not the concept.

[00:37:16.90] - Ben Reese

Yeah.

[00:37:17.09] - Gregg Garner

And so if we idolize the concept, we're already messing with the second command because because the concept's a graven image, and, those concepts are created not in the image of God. They're created in the image of the powers that believe themselves to have an answer for our problems. But God wants us to concentrate on what work he's doing. And that work he's doing is in people. Yeah. We can't build people with our hands. People are not graven images. People are images created in the image of God. And so I I I think that's that's the key to diversity to me is really getting to know people. Yeah. I like the word

[00:38:00.00] - Ben Reese

I like that you talked about intentionality because, yeah, to get to know people is there's a lot of extra work. It's not like you're trying to slough off responsibility by saying, oh, we don't care about this.

[00:38:11.59] - Gregg Garner

Alright.

[00:38:12.50] - Ben Reese

You know? But it is. It's just it takes a lot of intentionality. And I know when I first came because I came here as a student first. I mean, I was almost uncomfortable with how much people wanted to get to know me and, you know, have dinner with me and, talk with me. And I think you create that kind of culture. It's I don't know. There's something special about it, but then also there's something, like, I think that makes people uncomfortable. I think real diversity makes people uncomfortable.

[00:38:38.40] - Gregg Garner

I agree with you.

[00:38:39.19] - Ben Reese

Yeah. At first.

[00:38:40.00] - Laurie Kagay

Because we get that reaction a lot, I would say, from people. Yeah. I've never met so many people so interested in my story or these different things. And to me, I'm like, yeah. Welcome to the body of Christ. Right. You're welcome to people who wanna look in your eyes and actually wanna know your story. But I think you're right. I think real diversity makes people

[00:38:57.19] - Gregg Garner

That's how you that's how you make room for people too. Like, when I first met you, Ben, I I wanted to know the books you're reading. And I read them too. I didn't even know those authors. I I wouldn't I was I don't even read novels, but I read novels for you. And when I read them and and I I got to talk to you about them and I got to hear more about you on it, I I learned about that diverse way in which God created you to make sense of narrative. And and that was a gift for me and a gift that's in you from God. But had I not had I, like, conceptualized you and gone Anglo Saxon male

[00:39:37.80] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:39:38.50] - Gregg Garner

Coming from the Midwest, and, I got him down pegged.

[00:39:43.09] - Ben Reese

Right.

[00:39:43.50] - Gregg Garner

Gotcha now. I I I wouldn't really be learning the diverse contributions that you would have into our community, but to actually let you image is is, I it's what I hope everybody does.

[00:39:58.59] - Ben Reese

Mhmm.

[00:39:59.00] - Gregg Garner

Like, I remember when you first came, I saw you doodling your drawing on things, and I asked to look at more of your artwork and see what you're you're interested in. And you're definitely a people focused artist. Like you like people. And, that was another opportunity for me to learn more of who you were and who you're becoming and what you care about. If we just did a little bit more of that so I I I know we're running out of time here, but I can end with this with Jesus' parable. I actually brought it up recently, but I think it's so important to hear. The kingdom of God is like a person who found a treasure buried in a field, and he put it back. Then he went and sold everything he had to buy the field. The Bible will teach us that we are God's field, But the treasure that's in us has to be unearthed. And not only does it have to be unearthed, but there are people who have to take responsibility for identifying its value and then setting aside their own value to invest into the value of that field. That to me is what Christian education should be about. That you have leaders, professors, staff for whom students come in and there are all these fields, and it's like time to unearth the treasure. And the unearthing of that treasure and the blossoming of that manifold wisdom of God, that fruit at the end is I think that's the thing that makes the world stand in awe. And I'm I'm thankful to be a part of an institution that focuses on that kind of diversity.

[00:41:48.00] - Laurie Kagay

Me too. And thank you, I think, for for creating that kind of environment. You know, Ben and I are both reflecting when we first came, and that was, you know, near the beginning of the school in that way. But we're, I think, walking testimonies of what's been unearthed in us, and I do think that's part of the great adventure being on staff here and teaching our students

[00:42:07.50] - Gregg Garner

Mhmm.

[00:42:08.00] - Laurie Kagay

Is seeing what we couldn't see at first. What even sometimes took them by surprise.

[00:42:13.80] - Gregg Garner

Yeah.

[00:42:14.40] - Laurie Kagay

But seeing the gift of God in each of our students.

[00:42:17.59] - Ben Reese

Yeah. It's great. So I love seeing students who come in. They try to conform to, like, you know, they think they have to be a certain way. And I like to see them slowly blossom and realize, no. I can be me. And who I was trying to be wasn't me, but this is how God made me, and I'm okay with that, and you're okay with that.

[00:42:34.69] - Gregg Garner

It's a wonderful too.

[00:42:35.80] - Ben Reese

It's a beautiful thing to see. Oh, Oh,

[00:42:37.00] - Gregg Garner

Oh, Oh, man. It's the best. I I I feel I'm smiling so big because I know what you're talking about. Yeah. It's lovely to witness.

[00:42:44.09] - Ben Reese

Yeah.

[00:42:44.30] - Gregg Garner

That there's a there's a freedom and a safety. In in that kind of light. You know? I love it. Thanks.

[00:42:51.09] - Laurie Kagay

Yeah. For you guys listening, I I encourage you to practice this kind of sight and even investment in the people around you, even to consider, you know, how you can discover the gift of God in one another and to get excited about what that could what could be in store in that way in the college in which you are pursuing. Thank you guys for joining us. Thank you. Please do like and subscribe and comment on these. You can find all these episodes on YouTube.

[00:43:19.30] - Gregg Garner

And share them on your social media and let people know that it's happening. These conversations, hopefully, will spark more conversations within your friend groups.

[00:43:26.80] - Laurie Kagay

And speaking of conversations, you can email conversations@instituteforgod.org if you have topic suggestions or comments or anything like that, and we'll try our best to incorporate them into the show.

[00:43:41.69] - Gregg Garner

Awesome. Thank you, guys.